Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

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sunstersun
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

jedibeeftrix wrote: 27 Mar 2023, 10:50
sunstersun wrote: 26 Mar 2023, 19:49 Do you want another lost decade?

Ukraine and UK joining at the same time would be quite the site.
still droning on about the poor choices those british people made?
Still think being British makes your dumb decisions invulnerable to criticism because they were made by "British people." ?

Oh I elected Hitler, but British people made those choice so why are you criticizing it? We shouldn't try to undo it, because British people made that choice.

:shock:

Brexit has been an economic and political disaster that will leave you and your children poorer for decades.

Why not undo it.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Caribbean »

Wow - Godwin's Law in action!
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by jedibeeftrix »

sunstersun wrote: 27 Mar 2023, 21:58
Why not undo it.
You have had this explained to you before, but:

Why not? Because I do not believe that political (and economic) union within the EU can produce governance that is representative of, and accountable to, the british electorate.
i.e. It will not be legitimate governance.

Equally, it was widely ackowledged that the british electorate have never evidenced enthusiasm for the EU as a political union, and that deeper intehration only resulted in further reserve.
i.e. aside from sunk cost arguments, the further the EU integrates the less likely any return becomes.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

jedibeeftrix wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 09:52
sunstersun wrote: 27 Mar 2023, 21:58
Why not undo it.
You have had this explained to you before, but:

Why not? Because I do not believe that political (and economic) union within the EU can produce governance that is representative of, and accountable to, the british electorate.

i.e. It will not be legitimate governance.
Well, as long as you admit Brexit is a total economic & and geopolitical power disaster for the UK. Driven purely by political reasons(don't agree with them at all), I guess I can understand your POV no matter how disagreeable.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by jedibeeftrix »

sunstersun wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 15:31
jedibeeftrix wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 09:52
sunstersun wrote: 27 Mar 2023, 21:58
Why not undo it.
You have had this explained to you before, but:

Why not? Because I do not believe that political (and economic) union within the EU can produce governance that is representative of, and accountable to, the british electorate.

i.e. It will not be legitimate governance.
Well, as long as you admit Brexit is a total economic & and geopolitical power disaster for the UK. Driven purely by political reasons(don't agree with them at all), I guess I can understand your POV no matter how disagreeable.
I don't agree with that, at all.

Three points about the doom'y economic predictions:

a) they assumed a drastic fall in migration, which hasn't happened.
most the 'damage' was assumed to be caused by reduced people, rather than less trade.
and in fact, we now have one of the most liberal and equitable economic migration regimes in the world, certainly in europe.

b) the models that predicted this doom did so on the basis of a steady state.
i.e. no change, which is fair enough; how do you choose to model a counterfactual? and yet the state has indeed responded.
a nation-state choosing not to respond to changing internal and external circumstances would be absurd.

c) the models most chattered about on social media are based on an avg from a basket of other nations, i.e. the 4% drop.
and why not, you might ask? sure, but using the worlds reserve currency (US) and raw material materials exporter (AU) during C19...
and the curious result is that a brexit induced 4% drop is curiously absent if you compare it to peer european nations. like Germany.



People whine about the economic damage of brexit (which will barely exist on any long term scale), and yet are curiously silent when you point out to them it is democratic choice that [any] government might legitimately choose to make - every election time:
"Shall we vote in the socialists this time, dear?"
"Oh, Gerald, I think we might have to. It's about time somebody fixed the NHS!"


And you!
Why are you so curiously invested in this?
That you should choose to peer over from you perch on a regular basis and pick at the matter disconsolately - as if you have been personally agrieved by other peoples choices...
viewtopic.php?p=133795&hilit=jedibeeftrix#p133795
Curious chap.
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sunstersun
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by sunstersun »

So put it up for another vote, perhaps the people will vote differently after seeing the results. That's seems democratic to me. If Brexit wins again, then yeah. Move on.

I'm sure everyone who whines about the military budget will ignore the effect of their Brexit vote/opinion on the cash shortage.

Oh, I'm invested because I think it's the dumbest most disastrous choice next to electing Trump and as an American I have some interest in seeing the UK prosper not go through a lost decade.

Similar to how we're all rooting against Erdogan in May.
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

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Democracy should always come first, but having said that that is exactly why this happened in the first place. The people voted for a single market and got an ever closer political union - don’t point to democracy when it was absent for 50 years.
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Repulse »

sunstersun wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 20:31 Oh, I'm invested because I think it's the dumbest most disastrous choice next to electing Trump and as an American I have some interest in seeing the UK prosper not go through a lost decade.
I suggest you invest some time to understand the issue more rather than shouting off your mouth, it’s rather more complex than mainstream social media profess.

The unfettered / unrestricted migration that was at the core of EU principals drove a significant wedge in UK society. It meant that UK employers could hire not train or invest in the UK workforce, overall there were some winners, but the majority got left behind as the easy drug was cheap foreign labour. Brexit for those left behind is a real opportunity for future generations that otherwise would have been forgotten. I’m not a socialist and I live in an affluent part of the UK, but when people talk about queues at passport control, or the fact their children can’t travel to Europe for longer than 3 months it pisses me off - the average person cannot afford to travel. We can talk even about %s of GDP, but guess what the biggest hit is to the richest who benefited.

There does need to be a new alignment and partnership between the UK and the EU - they are are friends and allies, but enough with the same old blinkered crap.

If reversing Brexit was so popular and a given through democracy both the Labour and Conservative parties would be pushing it, but they aren’t so that should tell you something.
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by jedibeeftrix »

sunstersun wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 20:31 So put it up for another vote, perhaps the people will vote differently after seeing the results. That's seems democratic to me. If Brexit wins again, then yeah. Move on.
Sure. Who's asking for one?

You're making lots of assertions:
"Brexit has been an economic and political disaster that will leave you and your children poorer for decades."
That you can't evidence. It is just an assertion.
You can't even imply your assertions were true by pointing to a political party seeking a mandate to overturn it.
Because there isn't one.
Where is this disaster? Where are the people saying: "Vote for us, to end disasters!"
Mere assertion is not enough.

At some point you need to become comfortable with the notion that;
a) you don't like brexit, and;
b) that this is okay. disliking other peoples choices is not an existential problem for you. or them.


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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by jedibeeftrix »

sunstersun wrote: 29 Mar 2023, 20:31 Similar to how we're all rooting against Erdogan in May.
dunno who 'we' is in this context.
but you can add me to that list too.
my sister in law is turkish - we'll be out there in may during the election.


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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by jedibeeftrix »

People for whom brexit is a 'disaster' are strangely quiet right now...

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by R686 »

jedibeeftrix wrote: 30 Sep 2023, 11:12 People for whom brexit is a 'disaster' are strangely quiet right now...


Not on a lot of pro remain forums. They keep trying to spin it as it’s bad because it would have been higher if the UK was still in the EU. Until you point out why isn’t it higher in the EU member nations then?

But you know they are getting desperate when they say things like this. I won’t mention the forum name it’s quite big in the UK
Labours plan to put VAT on private education must surely be classed as a Brexit benefit as it would be illegal under EU law.
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Ian Hall »

https://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/91466

UK-EU Security Cooperation After Ukraine
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by mrclark303 »

Ian Hall wrote: 26 Jan 2024, 20:47 https://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/91466

UK-EU Security Cooperation After Ukraine
As in most things defence related, the UK led the way in Europe over Ukraine, while the cumbersome and slow EU dithered.

The current issue of the Yemen is another example, the EU is slow as molasses to react, while the UK acts immediately.

The UK and the EU really are on different pages.
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by SW1 »

I would ask what’s in it for us?

Two of the biggest security concerns for us right now is what’s happening in the North Sea (where around 75% of our energy comes from) and up to the high arctic around Norway and around Cyprus with Turkey Ukraine and the Black Sea.

Norway, Turkey and Ukraine aren’t in the EU. What is often forgotten, Europe is not the EU.
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Gtal »

Lol. How authoritative! Carnegie thinktank of course being literal Washington beltway foreign policy cabal insiders who desperately want to go back to the 1950s but instead see even the status quo slipping away in front of them..


All that's left is the UK hugging the US extra tight and spinning the media/thinktank circus extra hard because that's the only thing it'S still good at...

Also, love how the Yemen and the Huthi situation has apparently started last month out of nowhere, with maybe a euphemistic reference to them being in conflict with Saudi-Arabia recently..

Not a peep about an illegal war of aggression by Saudi and friends or the depth of support provided by the US and UK, certainly no mention of the warcrime orgy the whole thing turned into, or the crimes against humanity perpetrated like the attempt to starve Yemen into submission by putting them under a blockade, which resulted in the worst humanitarian horror of the 21st century according to the UN, with 100.000 dead children below the age of 5 alone..

Have the Huthis attacked anything not connected to the US/UK by the way?

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

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Gtal wrote: 29 Jan 2024, 01:34 Lol. How authoritative! Carnegie thinktank of course being literal Washington beltway foreign policy cabal insiders who desperately want to go back to the 1950s but instead see even the status quo slipping away in front of them..


All that's left is the UK hugging the US extra tight and spinning the media/thinktank circus extra hard because that's the only thing it'S still good at...

Also, love how the Yemen and the Huthi situation has apparently started last month out of nowhere, with maybe a euphemistic reference to them being in conflict with Saudi-Arabia recently..

Not a peep about an illegal war of aggression by Saudi and friends or the depth of support provided by the US and UK, certainly no mention of the warcrime orgy the whole thing turned into, or the crimes against humanity perpetrated like the attempt to starve Yemen into submission by putting them under a blockade, which resulted in the worst humanitarian horror of the 21st century according to the UN, with 100.000 dead children below the age of 5 alone..

Have the Huthis attacked anything not connected to the US/UK by the way?
So we should just let the Houthis indiscriminately attack shipping and affect the world economy?

They escalated this and dragged the US and UK in.

The EU will do absolutely fu#k all, despite it's assertion it's a world power, with dreams of being a Federal Superpower. It's actually bloody useless....

What do you suggest to address Huthi attacks , a harshly worded letter, threats of being placed on the naughty step, telling them they are only letting themselves down??

Pretending this is anything to do with Gaza is total horse shit, it's Iran fanning the flames of war via it's proxies, pure and simple. They have instructed the Huthi to attack shipping, probably threatened to reduce the support if they don't.

Perhaps you would like to share how you would stop the attacks on shipping without direct action?

We should all be very thankful that the US and UK actually have the balls to do something, putting their forces at risk, so others can hide behind them and criticise.

You clearly know better.

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Caribbean »

Gtal wrote: 29 Jan 2024, 01:34 Have the Huthis attacked anything not connected to the US/UK by the way?
Of the 22 ships attacked so far, 5 were warships (US,UK, France), so I'll leave them out

The rest are owned by companies, with shareholders from all over. Ascertaining ownership is difficult and likely to come up with small percentages owned by lots of different companies from all over the world, each in turn owned by groups of shareholders.

Most of the supposedly "UK owned" ships belong to companies partially owned by Israeli shipping magnates Idan Ofer and Rami Unger(for example Galaxy Leader is owned by a company that has both Japanese & UK investors, where the "UK" investor is an Isle-of-Man registered company, Ray Shipping, owned by Rami Unger). The most recent one, Marlin Luanda, is wholly-owned by a Swiss company with HQ in Singapore, but hires a UK management company to employ crews etc.

To date, most of the attacks on civilian ships have been on non-US/UK ships (see caveats above about difficulties in establishing "ownership"). Norwegian-flagged vessels seem to have been the hardest hit, as have Saudi-bound vessels

Most of the vessels were not heading to or from Israel (I haven't found one that was, but its possible that some concealed their intended destination), two were transporting sanctioned Russian products, so their true destinations may also have been concealed.
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

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Caribbean wrote: 29 Jan 2024, 09:44
Gtal wrote: 29 Jan 2024, 01:34 Have the Huthis attacked anything not connected to the US/UK by the way?
Of the 22 ships attacked so far, 5 were warships (US,UK, France), so I'll leave them out

The rest are owned by companies, with shareholders from all over. Ascertaining ownership is difficult and likely to come up with small percentages owned by lots of different companies from all over the world, each in turn owned by groups of shareholders.

Most of the supposedly "UK owned" ships belong to companies partially owned by Israeli shipping magnates Idan Ofer and Rami Unger(for example Galaxy Leader is owned by a company that has both Japanese & UK investors, where the "UK" investor is an Isle-of-Man registered company, Ray Shipping, owned by Rami Unger). The most recent one, Marlin Luanda, is wholly-owned by a Swiss company with HQ in Singapore, but hires a UK management company to employ crews etc.

To date, most of the attacks on civilian ships have been on non-US/UK ships (see caveats above about difficulties in establishing "ownership"). Norwegian-flagged vessels seem to have been the hardest hit, as have Saudi-bound vessels

Most of the vessels were not heading to or from Israel (I haven't found one that was, but its possible that some concealed their intended destination), two were transporting sanctioned Russian products, so their true destinations may also have been concealed.
I look forward to Gtals response......

I find it astonishing that anyone buys the bull shit Gaza link. This is an Iranian proxy action as they try to disrupt shipping in the straights of Hormuz and the Yemen.

For reasons only known to the rabid Ayatollah led fanatics, they want to set the entire region alight.

I'm not sure how much further they can push it without inviting direct military action on their heads.
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by SW1 »

The Houthi have been taking pot shots at ships since about 2016. A lot of this is to distract western resource from Ukraine at the urging of Russia thru Iran and to fracture resolve.

Thought I’m not sure what our strategy is mind, they will look at history and say if we move things about and dodge the west it will become bored and simply move on and in an election year with what’s going on in the states they’re probably right.

Shorten our supply routes by making more stuff ourselves and reinforce the long way round route would maximise pressure on Saudi and Egypt to deal with them long term because they know we aren’t going for the invade Yemen or Iran option.
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Repulse »

The fact that South Africa has cozied up to Russia and China is a concern as with the Suez blocked this is the only real alternative way to get goods to Europe in a timely manner.
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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

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Repulse wrote: 29 Jan 2024, 15:12 The fact that South Africa has cozied up to Russia and China is a concern as with the Suez blocked this is the only real alternative way to get goods to Europe in a timely manner.
Well, the SA government has gone to hell in a handcart, how they have the nerve to criticise others when rampaging corruption and breathtaking incompetence has utterly trashed the South African economy is incredible.

A friend of mine worked in security, with regional HQ's office in Kabul and Johannesburg among others.

He actually felt safer in Kabul and they had to carry concealed firearms when in Joburg, because of the levels of violent crime!

A country failing before our very eyes, Mandela must be spinning in his grave!

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

Post by Gtal »

mrclark303 wrote: 29 Jan 2024, 14:18

I look forward to Gtals response......


Oh don't.

Seeing as I don't think I've ever gotten a single "response" in this waffle house farce that's actually engaged substantively with me and not just entirely ignored the factual content of my posts and changed the subject instead I'm no longer reading responses.

Kisses :-*

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Re: Brexit - The UK's EU Referendum & Withdrawal

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