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Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 22 Mar 2023, 09:11
by SW1
Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑22 Mar 2023, 08:53
Repulse wrote: ↑21 Mar 2023, 21:42
I’m not sure it’s an embarrassment…
Its a complete failure of successive governments.
Let’s rewind a little.
- The UK had three invincible class aircraft carriers.
- The UK decided to replace them with two QE aircraft carriers
The U.K. decided to replace the 3 with 2 carriers in the 30-40k tonnes range sdsr 98!
Then the lunnies decided to significantly upscale on really really bad “requirement” and naval command then cut everything to protect this thinking bonkers
A coherent plan requires senior officers to be coherent n what they ask for within any likely budget/plan/strategy. As you can see from there comments in the press when they leave you can see why it’s not coherent.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 12:47
by Ron5
SW1 wrote: ↑22 Mar 2023, 09:11
Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑22 Mar 2023, 08:53
Repulse wrote: ↑21 Mar 2023, 21:42
I’m not sure it’s an embarrassment…
Its a complete failure of successive governments.
Let’s rewind a little.
- The UK had three invincible class aircraft carriers.
- The UK decided to replace them with two QE aircraft carriers
The U.K. decided to replace the 3 with 2 carriers in the 30-40k tonnes range sdsr 98!
Then the lunnies decided to significantly upscale on really really bad “requirement” and naval command then cut everything to protect this thinking bonkers
A coherent plan requires senior officers to be coherent n what they ask for within any likely budget/plan/strategy. As you can see from there comments in the press when they leave you can see why it’s not coherent.
RAF man craps all over the carriers with misinformation and crappy logic. In related news, grass is still green and the sky, blue.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 14:10
by donald_of_tokyo
Beautiful movie. Impressive is the "small" funnel structure housing a Phalanx CIWS with very good fire-arc.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 23 Mar 2023, 20:54
by Digger22
Impressive Service for the Navy. What an ultra useful, and cost effective asset.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 04 Jun 2023, 10:31
by SKB
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 04 Jun 2023, 11:02
by Poiuytrewq
SKB wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 10:31
Thats massive news IMO.
The first step to a meaningful FCF capability EoS.
Now need a Bay, both Waves and ideally the second Albion forward based at Duqm. It’s all in the water, use it or lose it!
Demonstrates clearly that RN wants additional aviation capacity over and above the CVFs.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 04 Jun 2023, 11:24
by mrclark303
Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 11:02
SKB wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 10:31
Thats massive news IMO.
The first step to a meaningful FCF capability EoS.
Now need a Bay, both Waves and ideally the second Albion forward based at Duqm. It’s all in the water, use it or lose it!
Demonstrates clearly that RN wants additional aviation capacity over and above the CVFs.
It certainly does, I assume it will have the current Gulf deployed T23 to ride shotgun if the Gulf ARG is called into action...
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 04 Jun 2023, 17:23
by Repulse
Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 11:02
SKB wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 10:31
Thats massive news IMO.
The first step to a meaningful FCF capability EoS.
Now need a Bay, both Waves and ideally the second Albion forward based at Duqm. It’s all in the water, use it or lose it!
Demonstrates clearly that RN wants additional aviation capacity over and above the CVFs.
It is good news for sure, and I think with some targeted spending (replacing the lifeboats with LCVP davits for example) will have a massive capability impact.
However, the two LPDs need to remain in the UK with the carriers. Also, dreaming of Waves and LSDs is just that a dream unless something changes. A review of the role of the RFA is overdue in my view, too many ships and demands.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 04 Jun 2023, 17:45
by tomuk
What is Argus made from? It is a shame we didn't take up her sister too. They don't build them like that anymore.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 04 Jun 2023, 19:33
by Tempest414
I said this would be the best way forward this will now gives us Argus , 1 x Bay , 1 x escort , 2 x RB2's , 3 x MCM EoS it also now allows Argus , Bay and escort to come together also we need to have a Gurkha re-enforced company ready to back up the RM EoS
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 04 Jun 2023, 20:13
by Poiuytrewq
Repulse wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 17:23
Also, dreaming of Waves and LSDs is just that a dream unless something changes.
Why?
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 04 Jun 2023, 21:45
by Repulse
Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 20:13
Repulse wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 17:23
Also, dreaming of Waves and LSDs is just that a dream unless something changes.
Why?
The 2 Waves are already tied up for lack of crew, and that’s before crew need to be found for an additional 2 Solid Stores ships and MRoSS.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 04 Jun 2023, 23:48
by wargame_insomniac
Repulse wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 21:45
Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 20:13
Repulse wrote: ↑04 Jun 2023, 17:23
Also, dreaming of Waves and LSDs is just that a dream unless something changes.
Why?
The 2 Waves are already tied up for lack of crew, and that’s before crew need to be found for an additional 2 Solid Stores ships and MRoSS.
The 2nd MRoSS has supposedly been delayed, and the two additional FSS (three new FSS less current Fort Victoria) are some away from being built. So that is not the reason the two Waves can't be crewed during the next few years.
Unfortunately though RN needed to decommission HMS Echo and Enterprise before they were able to crew RFA Proeteus and Stirling Castle. So we are back to hoping the RN and/or RFA find a few millions down the back of the sofa before they could afford to crew the two Waves.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 09:52
by Tempest414
What we really need to remember is the two new RFA ships only have 24 RFA crews each the rest of the crews are RN some 40 on each
As for the Wave's we really really need to find away of getting them back into service even if we lease them to NATO and put NATO crews on them I am sure between 27 members we can find 300 crew to allow 1.5 it works out to be 11 people per member like air tankers naval tankers are in high demand so to have two great tankers tide up is madness
But as said up thread with Argus going EoS this now gives us 1 x ASS , 1 x LSD , 1 x Escort , 2 x Rivers what is missing is a Tanker to give this lot really good range it is time to put the final parts together which for me is a tanker and upgrading the RB2's EoS to have 3D radars and better gun fit
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 15:11
by donald_of_tokyo
Tempest414 wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 09:52
What we really need to remember is the two new RFA ships only have 24 RFA crews each the rest of the crews are RN some 40 on each
As for the Wave's we really really need to find away of getting them back into service even if we lease them to NATO and put NATO crews on them I am sure between 27 members we can find 300 crew to allow 1.5 it works out to be 11 people per member like air tankers naval tankers are in high demand so to have two great tankers tide up is madness
But as said up thread with Argus going EoS this now gives us 1 x ASS , 1 x LSD , 1 x Escort , 2 x Rivers what is missing is a Tanker to give this lot really good range it is time to put the final parts together which for me is a tanker and upgrading the RB2's EoS to have 3D radars and better gun fit
Is tanker demand so large? Many of RN/RFA assets now has long range. There are also some tankers in allies.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 15:47
by Tempest414
donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 15:11
Tempest414 wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 09:52
What we really need to remember is the two new RFA ships only have 24 RFA crews each the rest of the crews are RN some 40 on each
As for the Wave's we really really need to find away of getting them back into service even if we lease them to NATO and put NATO crews on them I am sure between 27 members we can find 300 crew to allow 1.5 it works out to be 11 people per member like air tankers naval tankers are in high demand so to have two great tankers tide up is madness
But as said up thread with Argus going EoS this now gives us 1 x ASS , 1 x LSD , 1 x Escort , 2 x Rivers what is missing is a Tanker to give this lot really good range it is time to put the final parts together which for me is a tanker and upgrading the RB2's EoS to have 3D radars and better gun fit
Is tanker demand so large? Many of RN/RFA assets now has long range. There are also some tankers in allies.
For me yes down to having the ability to move around the Indo- Pacific at will as far as fuel and stores go war is like a pandemic we think we can get PPE or a tanker and when we need them then we find everyone wants one at the same time and we can't have one
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 17:34
by Repulse
The perfect companion for RFA Argus would actually be RFA Fort Victoria as it would cover now only refuelling but also solid supply including ammo. It isn’t going to happen however, but something we should think about in the future fleet mix as it’s a powerful (but low key) in situ enabler for larger operations.
Controversial, but perhaps selling a Wave and using the cash to modify the 2nd Wave to carry more solid stores could be an option for the near term.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 17:38
by mrclark303
Tempest414 wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 15:47
donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 15:11
Tempest414 wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 09:52
What we really need to remember is the two new RFA ships only have 24 RFA crews each the rest of the crews are RN some 40 on each
As for the Wave's we really really need to find away of getting them back into service even if we lease them to NATO and put NATO crews on them I am sure between 27 members we can find 300 crew to allow 1.5 it works out to be 11 people per member like air tankers naval tankers are in high demand so to have two great tankers tide up is madness
But as said up thread with Argus going EoS this now gives us 1 x ASS , 1 x LSD , 1 x Escort , 2 x Rivers what is missing is a Tanker to give this lot really good range it is time to put the final parts together which for me is a tanker and upgrading the RB2's EoS to have 3D radars and better gun fit
Is tanker demand so large? Many of RN/RFA assets now has long range. There are also some tankers in allies.
For me yes down to having the ability to move around the Indo- Pacific at will as far as fuel and stores go war is like a pandemic we think we can get PPE or a tanker and when we need them then we find everyone wants one at the same time and we can't have one
Absolutely, they are critical force multiplyers and the lack of support shipping will cause serious issues goin forward.
If Ivan doubles down on his cat and mouse SSN games and sabotaging our pipe / cables infostucture in the North Sea and Atlantic, folks can forget a Pacific pivot, the small Royal Navy can only do one thing at a time, so it will be wind back the clock to North Atlantic Cold War type ops for the RN, with the carriers spending much of their time in Atlantic waters ...
Forget East of Suez....
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 17:58
by SW1
On Argus going to the gulf is she replacing the bay?
Fwd deploying something you describe as maintenance intensive will be interesting…
Be interesting to know how many such support vessels our allies in the region have. A tanker is great way to extend there own reach to patrol there own areas and increase there skill set without us needing to get involved. It’s the same in the air we have roughy a similar number of air tankers as Japan, Australia and korea combined but we never seem to discuss the value in maxing our capabilities in this area it always has to be the fighty bits.
Always thought it odd the mod didn’t order 5 tide tankers and sell the waves.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 18:05
by Repulse
From memory there was an option to get two more Tides, but the yard went bust
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 18:13
by new guy
Repulse wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 18:05
From memory there was an option to get two more Tides, but the yard went bust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanwha_Ocean
South Korea handles 30-40% of all of the worlds shipbuilding and the yard we contracted is one of the "big 3" inside Korea so it would be a big hit if they were lost.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 18:20
by Repulse
SW1 wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 17:58
On Argus going to the gulf is she replacing the bay?
Fwd deploying something you describe as maintenance intensive will be interesting…
I think the Bay is on MCM duties so if I understand the plan will be replaced by a LSV, at which point I can’t see a Bay being based outside of the UK.
Maintenance will be interesting, but I guess as it’s a civilian modification it should still be easier than a complex warship.
SW1 wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 17:58
…but we never seem to discuss the value in maxing our capabilities in this area it always has to be the fighty bits.
Completely agree on this, forward based logistical enablers and lower level presence to build alliances, local knowledge and intelligence is a much better use of resources than forward basing complex warships. This actually will make deploying assets from the UK on exercises and in the times of conflict quicker and more effective.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 18:26
by RichardIC
Repulse wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 17:34
The perfect companion for RFA Argus would actually be RFA Fort Victoria as it would cover now only refuelling but also solid supply including ammo. It isn’t going to happen however, but something we should think about in the future fleet mix as it’s a powerful (but low key) in situ enabler for larger operations.
Controversial, but perhaps selling a Wave and using the cash to modify the 2nd Wave to carry more solid stores could be an option for the near term.
If you want to modify something to carry solid stores you’d be daft to start with a purpose-built tanker.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 05 Jun 2023, 20:47
by tomuk
new guy wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 18:13
Repulse wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 18:05
From memory there was an option to get two more Tides, but the yard went bust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanwha_Ocean
South Korea handles 30-40% of all of the worlds shipbuilding and the yard we contracted is one of the "big 3" inside Korea so it would be a big hit if they were lost.
The tides were built when the yard was still Daewoo DSME who were going bust due to accounting irrregularities and have only survived by a 3 4 billion pound injection of government funds and a buyout by the more competent\favoured Hanwha.
We got a good deal on the tides because they were desperate for work although the resultant quality of the ships is also down to the same desparation.
Re: RFA Argus (Casualty Receiving Ship / Aviation Training Ship) (RFA)
Posted: 06 Jun 2023, 20:45
by Repulse
RichardIC wrote: ↑05 Jun 2023, 18:26
If you want to modify something to carry solid stores you’d be daft to start with a purpose-built tanker.
Probably right, best sell both a buy a Karel Doorman then…
