UK Defence Forum

Scimitar54 wrote:How about getting Argus to "soldier on" along with Albion & Bulwark and their limited helicopter facilities

It's not a bad idea. Of the Forts, only Ft. Vic has had refurb (lately) so she will last to c. 2027 and with the SSSs coming, could do twilight duty in a similar way (and provide supplies, which otherwise will consume precious LIMs on the more dedicated amph. shipping).

In principle making best use of what we have and extend isn’t a bad proposition. The main issue is Argus’s age, it is almost 50 years already will it go on for another 20yrs till replacement?

Also, the assumption being made is that the end state will be 2 LHDs, which I think is far from certain. I still think that the analysis performed in the late 80s/90s holds, to have an effective 100% ARG capability a group of ships each optimised for its role (and can be position as such) is the best mix - e.g. 2 LPH (equivalents), 2 LPDs + 4 LSDs.

Would say now that a new build / converted Aviation Support Ship with similar capacity as the original Argus would be a smart purchase, keeping Ft Victoria running on and releasing the cash for the 3rd FSS.

Of course when you get to the 2030s such ideas will need to compete with, type 45 replacement, astute replacement (if the drumbeat is to continue), Typhoon replacement, rotorcraft replacement, voyager replacement to name but a few.

Except that by spending substantial money and effort on further stop-gaps, you will certainly delay or even rule out, getting what you actually need.

Scimitar54, spending money on stop gaps i agree is not what we should be doing. The point is can we afford to wait long, and do we know what we are aiming for - 2 “cheap” LHDs may look nice to some now but is it really what we need? A2D systems will increase in capability resulting in either a larger need for OTH basing or ships that can operate close to shore. Helicopter carriers I think should always operate far from shore with suitable AAW capability/ escorts.

I think LHDs are a compromise that is ok for smaller nations who will be more focused on low end ops / HADR - it depends where on the spectrum the RN wants to be.

Is this the first time the RN has referred to Argus as a Helicopter Support Vessel?

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... te-denmark

Maybe the Italians could sell us one of their decommissioned San Giorgio-class nice and cheap? Re-fit it and add an aircraft lift down to the vehicle deck (if it doesn't already have one) and it could be configured for one of a number of roles - aviation training, HADR, PCRS (with a modular hospital) and possibly even the FLSS roles. Quite limited, so no threat to the carriers, relatively cheap, fairly modest crew requirements (with accommodation for specialists when needed) and probably an improvement over Argus for aircraft handling.

Caribbean, San Giorgio-class have lifts but for only suitable for small helicopters and have limited aviation facilities, would personally say its better to buy a large container ship and convert from there.


Off-topic, but have always liked the San Giorgio-class and could see something similar actually well placed as the basis for a future MCM UUV/UAV mothership.

Repulse wrote:San Giorgio-class have lifts but for only suitable for small helicopters and have limited aviation facilities

I suspected that might be the case, though the hangar looks quite capacious from these shots. Might not have enough height for Merlin
https://www.google.com/search?q=san+gio ... lI6XGcH7M:

More nice pics of Argus’s lift and hangar.

No funds or plans to replace RFA Argus :-

https://www.naval-technology.com/news/n ... rfa-argus/

BBC reporting the RFA Argus has sailed for the Caribbean this morning she will take up position for the hurricane season.

On the RN website as well. A good idea to take a hospital to them. Most of the Islands rely on flying really serious cases for treatment in Miami, which might not be an option soon.

It may also concentrate the minds of the Powers that be, a to the need for the UK to have at least a Ship with a substantial hospital on board and aviation facilities. Whether with is an RFA or civilian vessel I think isn't important.

As she is only sailing with a small medical detachment I’m not sure that’s what I’d take from it. The people who man the medical facility are in the majority supporting the nhs across the uk. Mounts bay also had a medical detachment last year in the region.

There has also been some recent news of an expanded US presence in the Caribbean to deal with drug dealing in the region. Is it a coincidence that’s detachment of commando helicopter is deploying possibly with and marine commando’s. Are we seeing an fwd deployed littoral strike ship concept at play?

Rather than the dedicated hospital ship the thing that I take is like the bay deployments before it a large flexible RFA with large reconfigurable spaces for any number of things, good “hotel” facilities and aviation capability is extremely flexible especially if we have several that we can deploy to a number of locations. Suggests to me the configuration of the ellida concept is sound for the Uk mod.

The RN site says that elements of 815/845/1700NAS are deploying along with the RMs, but no mention of the helicopters that they are taking - has anyone seen any mention? They do mention "preparing for the hurricane season", but they are two months early for that.

It also states that a medical team could join later if needed to assist with COVID-19 cases in the OTs. At least the hospital will already be there

But, as you say, a good opportunity to experiment with the littoral strike concept when not engaged on other matters

Caribbean wrote:but no mention of the helicopters that they are taking

3 Merlins

Caribbean wrote:At least the hospital will already be there

It's not a hospital. People make hospitals.

I think I read 3 merlins and a wildcat

Do you think they would bring cases on board though? I would of thought that would be a very last resort. Can see the helicopters being used in same way they have been deployed around the uk. To offer to assist the movement of sick patients from remote locations to more major hospitals in the region.

I think having the ability to fwd deploy medical capacity is a gd thing especially if you have overseas territories, I think even the tide tankers have a role 2 medical facility. The French use there mistrals with expandable hospitals in each. I think you want a number of vessels with expandable spaces and capacity to take the equipment and people. I don’t think you want to stove pipe a medical capability into a single ship which is what a hospital ship would tend to do. RFAs value to uk defence will rise significantly going fwd.

Another nice pic

Repulse wrote:3 Merlins

That's a lot more capability than usual. The Bays usually deploy with a single Wildcat.

RichardIC wrote:It's not a hospital. People make hospitals.

Yes. But buildings and equipment help considerably.

SW1 wrote:Do you think they would bring cases on board though?

They didn't during the Ebola operation, but who knows - some of the smaller islands have very limited medical facilities and could easily be overwhelmed. I can't really talk in detail about most of the islands, but Cayman is probably the wealthiest of the Caribbean Islands and the best prepared. They have just over 200 beds (Government and private combined), of which around 20-25 are ICU beds (the private hospital does a lot of cardiac surgery for US citizens, so is better equipped in that respect). A ready-made 100-bed unit becomes quite valuable if the surge capacity is needed