Italian Armed Forces

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Tempest414
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

JFoulke wrote:Sorry, but nor the JC1 and the Camberra can operate F-35B, Spain has considered to modify it to use the F-35 in place of the Harriers, but it would need the same works as the Cavour did and Spain decided it was too espensive to modify.
The only ship similar to the JC1 capable of deploying the F-35 was the Turkish version, but that was a more expensive modified version, also, when a scale model of the Turkish version was showed, next to it there was written “4 F-35b”
The Turkish ships like the Canberra class cost more because they are built to a high naval standard. Both lifts on JC-1 are rated up to 25 tons and can take both F-35B and Chinook ( folded ) the ship when in carrier form can take 20 fighters and 6 helicopters or in pure airlifted 30 helicopters as for if JC-1 is F-35 ready it was reported in the Aug 19 copy of airforces monthly that USMC F-35B's could be conducting deck trials by the end of that year i.e the end of 2019 I would say this was pushed back due to covid-19. Now with USMC f-35's in Europe on HMS QE could we see them head to Spain next to conduct this trial

Do we know where and what JC-1 is doing now i.e is she out and about or in port

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by JFoulke »

To me is strange how a LHD can carry 26 aircrafts (seeing how the hangar for aircrafts, that is not the one for the vehicles, is rated to be circa 2.000 squared meters) compared to a pure aircraft carrier like the Cavour, that is rated to be on overload with circa 25 aircrafts and has an aircraft hangar that is bigger (that is rated at circa 2.800 squared meters)

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

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JFoulke wrote:To me is strange how a LHD can carry 26 aircrafts (seeing how the hangar for aircrafts, that is not the one for the vehicles, is rated to be circa 2.000 squared meters) compared to a pure aircraft carrier like the Cavour, that is rated to be on overload with circa 25 aircrafts and has an aircraft hangar that is bigger (that is rated at circa 2.800 squared meters)
The design of the JC-1 allows the light vehicle deck to be used as extra aircraft parking when in pure carrier form

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by eagle spotters »

Italian MoD financial planned for 2020-2022 years
( https://www.difesa.it/Primo_Piano/Pagin ... _2020.aspx ), seen follows naval news:
- the first 4,5 Euro milions for de-risking studies on new 2 destroyers (DDX)
- the second LSS (Logistic Support Ship) "Vulcano" class, about 27.000 t, for 411 Euro milions (to replace A5327 Stromboli, about 8.000 t)
- SDO-SuRS (Special & Diving Operations-Submarine Rescue Ship), about 8.600 t, for 424 Euro milions (to replace A5309 Anteo, about 3.700 t)
- 3 hydrographic vessels (1 with oceanic-polar capabilities, about 6.000 t; 2 for Mediterranean duties, about 2.000 t, to replace A5303 Ammiraglio Magnaghi - 1.700 t -, A5308 Galatea and A5304 Aretusa - about 410 t -)
- the first 3,0 Euro milions (and more 15 Euro milions from PESCO funds) for the planning of 12 New Generation Minehunters (CNG-A and CNG-C) to replace Lerici and Gaeta minehunters classes
- confirmation of funding for development and delivery:
Teseo EVO ASuW missiles
CAMM-ER AAW missiles (and systems)
Vulcano 127 mm, extended range guided ammunition
Blackshark, 533 mm heavy torpedo
Aster 30 B1NT, AAW and ATBM missiles
New radar AESA 3D L-band for AAW and ATBM duties, for ATBM vessels (and SAMP-T new generation)
Iveco VBA 8X8 (ACV 1.1) for San Marco Marines

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by SW1 »

Italians adding g550 c4isar aircraft to there g550 awacs aircraft with the help of IAI.


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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Halidon »

Plans for a pair of 10,000 ton Italian Navy Destroyers coming together.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -delivery/

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

From the above linked, interesting side mention:
“The procurement is also part of our commitment to NATO since we are part of a project to stand up new amphibious task forces, each containing three battalion-level landing elements with related combat and combat-service support, which means four amphibious ships and destroyers for protection."
- so more than one TF (doesn't say that they would all be in the Med)
- 3 bn-sized manoeuvre elements when Italy only has two Marines bns (the other one still building towards full strength)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:which means four amphibious ships and destroyers for protection."
I wonder what they will take from the RN's 2 x Amphib and a destroyer in the Med

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Tom8 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: - 3 bn-sized manoeuvre elements when Italy only has two Marines bns (the other one still building towards full strength
Could you please expand on this a bit further? I am aware that the Italian amphibious forces are made up of the army’s Lagunari Battalion plus the Navy’s two assault battalions from the 1st San Marco regiment?

Are these the three you refer to? If so, which one is still building towards full strength (wiki does suggest that the San Marco battalions only have two assault companies each)?

The Lagunari regiment is the only infantry component of the at Pozzuolo del Friuli brigade, along with a light cavalry recognisance regiment and an artillery regiment. Do you know if these other brigade components are part of the Italian amphibious forces?

Thanks

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tom8 wrote:along with a light cavalry recognisance regiment
I was under the impression that San Marco is effectively bn sized, and that the subdivision is to accommodate manning their carrier for intervention/ peace making duties on rotation (see the capacity for this, max 600, which must be less on a sustained basis).

I don't pretend to be in the know, but what I quoted from you is pretty much what I thought I would add to the first piece, as a parallel to how the French Marines operate - they have 'always' had their own light armour.
- but then I had no source, so left it out

I doubt it v much that the Italians would be building ships for somebody else's bn.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Tom8 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:they

Taken from newly found wiki page:

National Sea Projection Capability:

The "Pozzuolo del Friuli" forms with the Italian navy's 3rd Naval Division, and San Marco Marine Brigade the Italian military's National Sea Projection Capability (Forza di proiezione dal mare). The following units of the PDF brigade are earmarked for the National Sea Projection Capability:

Lagunari Regiment "Serenissima" (army battalion)
2x Reconnaissance Squadrons from the Regiment "Genova Cavalleria" (4th) (freccia and centauro)
2x Howitzer Batteries from the Field Artillery Regiment "a Cavallo" (155mm fh-70s)
2x Sapper Companies from the 3rd Engineer Regiment
Logistic elements from the Logistic Regiment "Pozzuolo del Friuli"

I believe that two Naval marine assault battalions plus the marine logistics battalion form the rest of the NSPC.


All three infantry regiments have some AAV7 in a recon platoon, but the light cav I previously referred to was from the Genova regiment.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Tom8 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:is manning their carrier
Designing the battalion structure around the size of your major amphibious ship does make sense (new Trieste also holds up to 600 embarked force).

Going forward the San Giorgio-class amphibious transport dock ships will be being replaced with three much larger ships (8k —> 18k tons), which could increase the embarked troop capacity.

Overall, the Italians are beginning to develop a tidy amphibious capability.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tom8 wrote: beginning to develop a tidy amphibious capability
Indeed. Must wonder what joint NATO amph. TFs the news piece was referring to;
- in the North there is the Anglo-Dutch one
- will something be formalised for the Med (the USMC 'embassy rescue' task force for Africa is based out of Spain, but have no ships)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Tom8 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:TFs
quote="ArmChairCivvy"]TFs[/quote]

The link below does detail something called the “European amphibious initiative” and describes two multinational task forces (1) uk + NL and (2) Spain + Italy. In total there are 10 nations discussing European amphibious task groups

https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2017/0 ... es/136245/

More is detailed here

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2928.html

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

in the North there is the Anglo-Dutch one
- will something be formalised for the Med (the USMC 'embassy rescue' task force for Africa is based out of Spain, but have no ships)
Well, AMBI (from the first link on the above) answers the 'no ships':
" In 2015, the U.S. Marine Corps established an Allied Maritime Basing Initiative, or AMBI, to certify MV-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft for flight operations aboard European L-class ships. [Most recently, the United Kingdom and the United States announced that U.S. Marine F-35B Joint Strike Fighters may embark on the HMS Queen Elizabeth’s maiden journey in about four years.] These recent activities reinforce Europe’s longstanding integration at the bilateral level, including through the United Kingdom-Netherlands Landing Force and Spanish-Italian Amphibious Force."

Last year AMBI had got this far
"Marines and Sailors with Special Purpose Marine Air-Ground Task Force-Crisis Response-Africa 20.1, Marine Forces Europe and Africa, are participating in a combined exercise with the Spanish Navy and Marines near the Balearic Islands aboard the Spanish naval vessel Juan Carlos I "
and though the force is only company sized, it can reach ships anywhere in the Med at very short notice
- whereas the role of the USMC's a company+ force in Norway is to safeguard the prepositioned equipment for a bde-size force
... so there we have it: 3 bde-size forces; two Far North/ the Baltic and one for the Med
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by SW1 »

The Italians to aquire 4 sigint and 4 awac aircraft based on the g550 platform I assume with Israeli assistance


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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Reading an article in Naval Forces magazine on the Italian PPA programme, it was interesting to see that whilst the Full and Light+ will have 2x8 Sylver A70 VLS the Light= will carry CAMM-ER quad packed where as the Full variant will have Aster 30/15. Would this be something worth the Royal Navy looking at for the T-45, assigning one of each ships 8 cell VLS to Quad Packed CAMM-ER, increasing its load out to 40 Aster 30 and 32 CAMM-ER? Sorry if this has already been gone over here or elsewhere.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by muttbutt »

SW1 wrote:The Italians to aquire 4 sigint and 4 awac aircraft based on the g550 platform I assume with Israeli assistance

Something interesting about the SIGINT variants is they also seem to be capable of offensive work too.....

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

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Italian Navy Aircraft Carrier Cavour To Start F-35B Qualification Next Month
Image
The Italian Navy (Marina Militare) flagship, the aircraft carrier ITS Cavour, is set to reach Naval Station Norfolk in mid-February to start F-35B STOVL aircraft qualifications with the U.S. Marine Corps. This was announced by Captain Gianfranco Vizzini, Naval Attaché at the Italian Embassy in Washington DC, during the Surface Navy Association (SNA) 2021 virtual Symposium.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ext-month/

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by serge750 »

One heck of a good looking light carrier imo, will be awsome to see some F35 on her deck !

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

serge750 wrote:One heck of a good looking light carrier imo, will be awsome to see some F35 on her deck !
Yeah, is that ramp in the back for off-loading vehicles?

I'd like to understand more about the hangar/ lift sizes, as for accommodating F-35s

And also about the trade-offs, in the use of space, as it can purportedly [allegedly :D ]carry 600 marines, for an extended period
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Jensy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: Yeah, is that ramp in the back for off-loading vehicles
That ramp is curious. Looking at some decidedly non-offical artwork, it appears to be a ramp down from the rear of the hangar deck:

Image

However, there's already a side loading ramp for vehicles than can be seen here:

Image

Would be interested if it can be used at sea for transferring vehicles to landing craft/mexefloat equivalents (like Ocean could)?

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Does Cavour have a secondary role as an Amphibious Assault Ship (LHA)? It doesn't have a well deck but could carry a substantial and mixed airwing of various helicopters and AV-8B+ and later F-35B together with the troops and equipment to be landed by the former.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jensy wrote: Would be curious if it can be used at sea for transferring vehicles to landing craft/mexefloat equivalents.
I would think that the 600 of San Marco would have not only some vehicles (the side door) but also some helos (shrink-wrapped a la Falklands style and wheeled in through that ramp), so that the strike element will be on deck and operated from there, but these helos can then be brought to the deck between take-offs and landings, and flown to an FOB - as was planned for e.g. the San Marcos landing.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

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