Italian Armed Forces

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Repulse
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Repulse »

SKB wrote:In which region does Italy's magic money trees grow? :mrgreen:
Don’t know, but they are fast becoming having the most credible surface fleet in Europe. 4 AAW DDs + 4 ASW FFs + 6 GP FFs + 7-16 PPAs (light frigates / OPVs).
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Lord Jim
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

This is what happens when you have a well thought out long term naval construction plan that is properly funded without having to worry about annual accounts. UK take note.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by J. Tattersall »

Lord Jim wrote: that is properly funded without having to worry about annual accounts. UK take note.
Except Italy spends a lot less on defence than the UK does and I don't know of a country in the world that doesn't control its expenditure on annual basis, only difference is that UK's financial year starts each April whereas most countries start in January. Oh, and have you noticed that before coronavirus Italy's public finances were almost at the point of unsustainability and now it's seeking tens of billions in non-repayable post-CovId EU grants. There are lots of things to admire about Italy, their engineering is excellent, however control of their finances is something that the UK possibly wouldn't want to copy.

Also Italy might have some miraculous ability to design and run its defence equipment programme that Britain doesn't have. I expect however if you look really, really closely you might find that miracles aren't worked by mortal men. When looking admiringly at what other nations appear to produce beware that the key capabilities of a warship are on-board, well out of sight, and rarely made public. Don't judge a book by its cover.

Lord Jim
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Yes other countries may have an annual budget, but large programme gain multi-year funding allowing for more sustainable procurement. With the UK programmes lurch from year to year.

As for capability, every escort the Italians have launched in recent years has come with a complete weapons and sensor package from the start, with a decent main gun and/or multi-role 76mm guns, a decent SAM system, ASW Torpedoes and a good AShM just to start with. Yes we have three eight cell MK41s on the T-26, but you would have thought that something would have begun to find something to put in them by now.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

SKB wrote:In which region does Italy's magic money trees grow? :mrgreen:
Bruxelles-Frankfurt area. :lol:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Tempest414
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

Repulse wrote:Don’t know, but they are fast becoming having the most credible surface fleet in Europe. 4 AAW DDs + 4 ASW FFs + 6 GP FFs + 7-16 PPAs (light frigates / OPVs).
when you lay it out like this the RN has 6 AAW DD + 8 ASW FF + 5 GP FF and 9 OPV s. But as said many times the key for the RN will be the MH(P)C program if we can get 12 to 14 ships to replace the MCM , Survey and River B1's = 18 ships

Repulse
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Repulse »

Tempest414 wrote:when you lay it out like this the RN has 6 AAW DD + 8 ASW FF + 5 GP FF and 9 OPV s. But as said many times the key for the RN will be the MH(P)C program if we can get 12 to 14 ships to replace the MCM , Survey and River B1's = 18 ships
The T31s are at best equivalent of PPAs - so probably a mix of 5 T26s, 8 Rivers, 3 Echo and Scott plus 6 Hunt MCMs will be the fleet till the early 2030s; then you are right a single MHPC class remains a solid approach.

The Royal Navy still looks 1-2 T26s short IMO to cover both CSGs, TAPS, FRE and Kipion; which I believe is the stated aim.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Meriv9
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Meriv9 »

About the money coming from Bruxell-Frankfurt

First from the economic side but going OT, Berlin University paper puts the monetary effect on german export growth at 12-25%. Considering that in 2018 the size of their economy dedicated to international trade was 1trillion it puts the numbers from 120 to 250billions of monetary/currency dumping just for being in Union with the south of Europe.

Add the dutch that are even more export oriented, multiply that % for 20 years of union....

What I want to say Im ultra grateful for the danish and swedish help, they have their own currency, to them I can only bow and acept their conditions and suggestions.

In no way, just in case, I want to excuse Italy from the lack of reforms but I'm not going to be grateful to Germans and Dutch for money they owned us since the start of the EMU.

Second aspect, dont ask me how or why but the MMI(Navy) is probably one of the most efficient institutions of the state IMHO.

If Tempest was a Navy program I wouldn't fear cuts as much I fear them coming for the Airforce.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Until the RN gets modern ship based AShMs and ASW weapon systems my vote still goes to the Italian Navy. Yes we have two nice new Aircraft Carriers but will they ever reach their true potential. In the meantime all the Italian top tier warships are better equipped in terms of hitting power and defensive capabilities and at least equal in sensors. The RN maybe proud of its Carriers but they are the least protected on any of that class of ship in the world as everyone else has realised that you cannot rely on just the escorts.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by inch »

I personally think the Italian navy and it's ships / future ships are great ,why do they seem to get it right and we dont somehow ( I'll answer my own question it's our politicians ,they don't care ) thumbs up Italy

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by inch »

Just reading wiki and didn't realize if correct Trieste 47mtrs wide and 550 Cavour only 39 MTRS wide ,so Trieste 8 MTRS wider ,is that correct for people in the know ? Thanks .

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Jake1992 »

inch wrote:Just reading wiki and didn't realize if correct Trieste 47mtrs wide and 550 Cavour only 39 MTRS wide ,so Trieste 8 MTRS wider ,is that correct for people in the know ? Thanks .
From what I can gather when looking through recent articals on the vessel it appears the 47m beam is from the over hang lifts with a flight deck beam of 36m, meaning each lift over hangs by roughly 5.5m.


https://euro-sd.com/2019/12/articles/15 ... abilities/

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Having the Trieste able to operate the F-35B will give the Italian Navy effective cover when the Cavour is in maintenance. Some reports do seem to suggest that it may eventually be fitted with a Ski Jump, possibly at its first major maintenance period.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Rosh »

Lord Jim wrote:Having the Trieste able to operate the F-35B will give the Italian Navy effective cover when the Cavour is in maintenance. Some reports do seem to suggest that it may eventually be fitted with a Ski Jump, possibly at its first major maintenance period.
The Trieste already has a ski jump

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SKB
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by SKB »

Trieste L9890
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(Michele Florio @MikiAV8BHarrier) 5th May 2020

inch
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by inch »

Cheers jake1992, it's looking great ,love the Italian navy and their ships ,big fan

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Thanks for the correction, though it does look like an addition whilst she is still under construction, at least in the photos.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Jake1992 »

I’d love to see a pair of these in RN use down the line, 2 of these + 2 improved Bays + 2 Karl Doorman/Elida would make a great ARG but one can only dream lol

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

Jake1992 wrote:I’d love to see a pair of these in RN use down the line, 2 of these + 2 improved Bays + 2 Karl Doorman/Elida would make a great ARG but one can only dream lol
As nice as these are what would they offer over say a JC1/ Canberra class given a JC1 has a bigger well dock has a extra 2000 nm range can carry 20 + Merlin or 20 + F-35b can carry 900 + troops and in the case of the Canberra class costs 260 million euros cheaper

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Jake1992 »

Tempest414 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:I’d love to see a pair of these in RN use down the line, 2 of these + 2 improved Bays + 2 Karl Doorman/Elida would make a great ARG but one can only dream lol
As nice as these are what would they offer over say a JC1/ Canberra class given a JC1 has a bigger well dock has a extra 2000 nm range can carry 20 + Merlin or 20 + F-35b can carry 900 + troops and in the case of the Canberra class costs 260 million euros cheaper
I believe they are cheaper due to being built to more commercial standards which is something you wouldn’t want in the mix I stated above, but I’d take either to be fair just love the look of Trieste and how it’d look next to a QE :lol:

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Tempest414
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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

In the case of the JC-1 the build standard is lower and this is seen in the 460 million euro price however the Canberra class is built to naval standards which is also seen in the price of 910 million euros or A$ 1.5 billion

I have to say I wish we could build a 240 x 36 meter F-35 capable LHD for 1 billion pounds per ship

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Timmymagic »

Lord Jim wrote:Thanks for the correction, though it does look like an addition whilst she is still under construction, at least in the photos.
It was pretty much immediately after the launch. It had been fabricated dockside and was winched on and attached pretty much straight after the announcement that she was getting one....almost as if they had planned it that way...in essence its construction was the same as the QE Class.
Tempest414 wrote:As nice as these are what would they offer over say a JC1/ Canberra class given a JC1 has a bigger well dock has a extra 2000 nm range can carry 20 + Merlin or 20 + F-35b can carry 900 + troops and in the case of the Canberra class costs 260 million euros cheaper
Has it got a bigger well dock? Both can accomodate 70t LCU's or 1xLCAC so thats pretty standard. I also really doubt the JC1's ability to handle aviation as well as the Trieste.

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

Timmymagic wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:Thanks for the correction, though it does look like an addition whilst she is still under construction, at least in the photos.
It was pretty much immediately after the launch. It had been fabricated dockside and was winched on and attached pretty much straight after the announcement that she was getting one....almost as if they had planned it that way...in essence its construction was the same as the QE Class.
Tempest414 wrote:As nice as these are what would they offer over say a JC1/ Canberra class given a JC1 has a bigger well dock has a extra 2000 nm range can carry 20 + Merlin or 20 + F-35b can carry 900 + troops and in the case of the Canberra class costs 260 million euros cheaper
Has it got a bigger well dock? Both can accomodate 70t LCU's or 1xLCAC so thats pretty standard. I also really doubt the JC1's ability to handle aviation as well as the Trieste.
Trieste well dock 50 x 15 meters , JC-1 69 x 16 meters as aviation JC-1 works well able to operate all USMC assets apart from F-35b which has yet to be trialled but which was due early this year but has been put back

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by JFoulke »

Sorry, but nor the JC1 and the Camberra can operate F-35B, Spain has considered to modify it to use the F-35 in place of the Harriers, but it would need the same works as the Cavour did and Spain decided it was too espensive to modify.
The only ship similar to the JC1 capable of deploying the F-35 was the Turkish version, but that was a more expensive modified version, also, when a scale model of the Turkish version was showed, next to it there was written “4 F-35b”

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Re: Italian Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

JFoulke wrote:next to it there was written “4 F-35b”
No lift big enough? Sounds like a curious number otherwise
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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