Italian Armed Forces

[eagle spotters]

Published the official planning of the Italian Navy, to 2034 (update on july 2018...):

http://www.marina.difesa.it/media-cultu ... 9_2034.pdf

- 1 static HQ
- 1 MCC, NATO HFR(M)HQ

- 1 CVL (550 Cavour)
- 4 amphibious vessels (L9890 LHD Trieste + 3 LXD)
- 4 DDG destroyers (2 Horizon/Andrea Doria class + 2 new DDX)

future DDX concept:


- 10 FFG frigates (FREMM, Bergamini class)
- 7 OPV medium patrol ship (PPA, Paolo Thaon di Revel class)
- 8 OPV light patrol ship (EPC, European Patrol Ship class); it could be 9, not 8
- 4 coastal patrol boats (Esploratore class, now deployed to MFO Sinai mission)
- 8 SSK submarine (4 U212A + 4 U212NFS)
- 1 SDO SuRS (to replace A5309 Anteo: Special and Diving Operations - Submarine Rescue Ship)
- 3 LSS (A5335 Vulcano class)
- 12 MHC minehunter (4 CNG-A - Cacciamine Nuova Generazione-Altura - + 8 CNG-C - Cacciamine Nuova Generazione-Costieri ?)

future CNG-A concept (CNG-A = new generation minehunter - ocean-going):


future CNG-C concept (CNG-C = new generation minehunter - coastal):



- 1 LRSSS/MCCS (Submarine and Minehunter Support Ship)
- 2 UNPAV (high-speed multipurpose patrol boat, for SF; Angelo Cabrini class)
- 2 AGI (A5340 Elettra and new AGI)
- 1 UIOM (Main ocean going hydrographic vessel / polar, to replace A5303 Ammiraglio Magnaghi)
- 2 coastal hydrographic vessels (to replace A5304 Aretusa and A5308 Galatea)
- 3 Research Vessels (to replace A5315 Raffaele Rosseti and A5320 Martellotta)
- 7 command school vessels and training units (to replace Astice, Murena and Porpora and opportunity patrol vessels)
- 2 main sail vessels (Amerigo Vespucci and Palinuro)
- 6 sail vessels
- 2 coastal water tankers
- 10 MTC/MTF coastal transport units
- 4 MCC coastal oil tankers
- 54 tugs and harbour units

Navy Aviation
- 9 MPA ASW (rumors tell Kawasaki P-1)
- 15 F35B
- 30 heavy helicopters (AW-101 and tilt rotor)
- 56 medium helicopters (46 SH-90ASW and 10 MH-90TTH)
- 12 light utility helicopters AW-169 (any AW-101 replace ?)
- 3 Piaggio P-180 Avanti
- 16 tactic UAS (Leonardo AWHero ?)

Brigata Marina San Marco
- 1° Rgt (Assault force)
- 2° Rgt (Boarding Team)
- 3° Rgt (Force protection)
- 72 VBA Veicoli Blindati Anfibi (IVECO SuperAV/ACV 1.1 8X8)
- 90 VTMM (Iveco Orso 4X4)

- Coastal Radar Network
- 3 fixed Harbour Protection Systems (to Taranto, La Spezia, Augusta Naval Bases)

[xav]

Italian Navy PPA to be Powered by Hybrid GE Propulsion System

The Italian Navy Paolo Thaon di Revel, the first of class PPA Multipurpose Offshore Patrol Ship is now in the water following its roll out ceremony at the Fincantieri Shipyard in Muggiano – La Spezia, Italy. The vessel will feature a hybrid GE LM2500+G4 gas turbine propulsion system.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... on-system/

[xav]

Italy’s Cavour aircraft carrier starts F-35B modification work

The Italian Navy « Cavour » aircraft carrier yesterday entered the « Edgardo Ferrati » basin at the Maritime Military Arsenal in Taranto, the Italian MoD stated.

The maneuver represents a turning point in the maintenance and adaptation work that will, after ten years of active service, allow the ship to adapt to the standards for the F-35B fighter jet which will replace the current fleet of AV-8B Harrier II SVTOL aircraft.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... tion-work/

[eagle spotters]

BMD capability for FREMM-IT

Leonardo demos outstanding BMD capabilities performed by its MFRA radar during Formidable Shield 2019:

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... z8c5dfkIP4

[xav]

Italian Navy 1st PPA ‘Paolo Thaon di Revel’ Starts Sea Trials

The Italian Navy's first Multipurpose Offshore Patrol Ship (PPA) “Paolo Thaon di Revel” started sea trials, setting sails in the blue waters of the Gulf of La Spezia on 12th Nov 2019.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ea-trials/

[Blackstone]

Such a funky looking ship. I hope she aces her trials.

[Dahedd]

Such a funky looking ship. I hope she aces her trials.

Weird looking ship, looks really top heavy, even more so that an T45. Obviously wont be, the designers will have thought all that out. Be interesting to see how it does.

[Jake1992]

Such a funky looking ship. I hope she aces her trials.

Weird looking ship, looks really top heavy, even more so that an T45. Obviously wont be, the designers will have thought all that out. Be interesting to see how it does.

You say that but there’s 2 modern example of this not happening, you’ve got the German frigates is it the F125s and then the USN zumwalt both shown on sea trials to be unstable and needed modification work.

[Dahedd]

I knew the Zumwalt had had issues. Didn't know about the German ships though.

[Jake1992]

It was a couple of years ago but the German navy refused delivery due to listing to one side.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... -christmas

[NickC]

Have not seen posted, MBDA PR 29th Nov, Italians first test firing of CAMM-ER - 17/10/2019

[Jdam]

Impressive, what do the Italians plan on using the missile land or seas based defence?

[Timmymagic]

Impressive, what do the Italians plan on using the missile land or seas based defence?

Land based is the main initial goal to replace the Spada SAM system, they're then looking to put them on ships to 'replace' Aster 15. I think the 'replace' is more to mean equip future vessels rather than rip out Aster 15 from Horrizonte Class and Cavour.

If they succeed in quad packing in Sylver we'd be mad not to pile in. No need to replace Aster 15 on T45, just refurb them with Aster 30 boosters (as our stocks are apparently not massive) and utilise for long range engagements only. The quad packed CAMM and CAMM-ER provide a couple more layers to the protection 'onion'. With 48 Sylver a T45 could have 12 Aster-NT for BMD, 24 Aster 30, 24 CAMM-ER and 24 CAMM. That would give them colossal firepower and cover engagements from 100's of km away to 200 metres away. Add in the new interim AShM in canisters and we could actually forget about ever fitting the Mk.41's and keep the second gym....

I've long been a fan of going halves with the Italians on this, the cost was fairly small but massive advantages. The Army get a bigger and better SAM for the first time in years (CAMM on its own is a massive improvement) but the T26's and T31's get an area defence missile as well.

Now if we can only capture the blow off panels from the canister there would be no FOD and we could fit them on QE...a piece of wire should do it....

[ArmChairCivvy]

Army get a bigger and better SAM for the first time in years (CAMM on its own is a massive improvement) but the T26's and T31's get an area defence missile as well.

If Boris gets to start his defence review, there must be a job in the PM's office waiting for you. Doing away with silo thinking could, for once, both save money and boost capability.

[Jdam]

If they succeed in quad packing in Sylver we'd be mad not to pile in. No need to replace Aster 15 on T45, just refurb them with Aster 30 boosters (as our stocks are apparently not massive) and utilise for long range engagements only. The quad packed CAMM and CAMM-ER provide a couple more layers to the protection 'onion'. With 48 Sylver a T45 could have 12 Aster-NT for BMD, 24 Aster 30, 24 CAMM-ER and 24 CAMM. That would give them colossal firepower and cover engagements from 100's of km away to 200 metres away. Add in the new interim AShM in canisters and we could actually forget about ever fitting the Mk.41's and keep the second gym....

I've long been a fan of going halves with the Italians on this, the cost was fairly small but massive advantages. The Army get a bigger and better SAM for the first time in years (CAMM on its own is a massive improvement) but the T26's and T31's get an area defence missile as well.

Now if we can only capture the blow off panels from the canister there would be no FOD and we could fit them on QE...a piece of wire should do it....

Sounds like a good way forward, I was wondering about replacing Aster 15 with CAMM-ER myself. When I seen the new of this on Gabriele's twitter it was mention that the diameter of CAMM-ER could be different, I wonder if this would stop it being quad packed?

[Tempest414]

As I have said before if the RN goes with what it has i.e Aster 15/30 and CAMM on type 45 it could carry 16 x Aster 30 , 16 x Aster 15 and 64 x CAMM for a total load out of 96 missiles. Then as said above if we lost the gym and added another 8 cells we could add CAMM-ER

[Timmymagic]

As I have said before if the RN goes with what it has i.e Aster 15/30 and CAMM on type 45 it could carry 16 x Aster 30 , 16 x Aster 15 and 64 x CAMM for a total load out of 96 missiles. Then as said above if we lost the gym and added another 8 cells we could add CAMM-ER

The reason I was suggesting a change was the tiny numbers of Aster 30 that we have. The RN's buy was 150 Aster 30 and 300 Aster 15. That was a big buy in comparison to Italy and France. No new orders since, and a fair few fired off in tests. Consolidating the remaining Aster 15 missiles onto Aster 30 boosters would give us a decent long range capability and enable the Aster 15 role to be taken over by CAMM/CAMM-ER. At present if we actually stuck 16 Aster 30 on each T45 (and I know not all 6 will be available at all times) I suspect we'd be close to 80=90% of our entire stockpile. CAMM-ER gives us a chance to rejuvenate the RN's medium range capability and preserve and enhance its long range stockpile at a comparatively modest cost.

[Lord Jim]

If I had my way, during the T-45s mid life refit I would rip out the Sylver silos and install Mk41s with SM-6 and quad packed Sea Ceptor, removing the Gym allowing for an extra two 41s. As for the Aster, I would convert them all to Aster-30, but the land based version, add the relevant Radar and control platforms and equip a RA Regiment with the weapon system giving us once again a respectable land based area SAM. Won't happen but one can dream.

With Italy though with both land based Aster-30 and CAMM-ER they have a pretty good SAM capability especially when you had the AAA they also have. Once again a Country with a far smaller defence budget, seems to be able to get thing done with regards to procurement and make us look like a bunch of numpties.

[Phil Sayers]

Apologies if this is a stupid question or has been asked before but does anyone know what the thinking behind Cavour's ski jump finishing well short of the maximum possible take off length is? If it is as simple as their Harriers wouldn't gain anything from it being further forward is it known whether moving it forms part of the F-35 modifications mentioned up the page?

[eagle spotters]

Today, Riva Trigoso
launching cerimony for frigate F589 "Emilio Bianchi", italian FREMM in general purpose version.
The tenth and last FREMM-IT.
Will be delivered to Marina Militare in april 2021:

[Lord Jim]

Didn't the FREMM programme start whist our Future Surface Combatant programme had already been going for nearly a decade and still hadn't decided on the list of capabilities the successor to the T-23 should have? And how many FREMM type vessels have been built up to now and how many T-26 have been built? Silly question though it does make us look rather silly, being polite, in my view. May be we should have joined the FREMM programme build ours in country, with a few UK tweaks like Quad packed Sea Ceptor in a number of the Sylver silos, and Artisan for example. Maybe we would be getting the first ship operational by now instead of waiting at least seven more years for the first T-26. Yes it has been an export success but a total farce when it some to the UK's programme. Well done Italy and your French Partners.

[Tempest414]

The thing is how much better is FREMM over Type 23 and how much better will Type 26 be over FREMM we know type 23 is still one the top ASW platforms around. In real terms we are about 7 years out of step we should have the first Type 26 in the water now. This being said you are right Italy and France have done a good job with this program and it could pay off in the US FFG X program

[Timmymagic]

The thing is how much better is FREMM over Type 23 and how much better will Type 26 be over FREMM we know type 23 is still one the top ASW platforms around. In real terms we are about 7 years out of step we should have the first Type 26 in the water now. This being said you are right Italy and France have done a good job with this program and it could pay off in the US FFG X program

T26 would be a nailed on winner in FFG(X) if it actually existed. Whilst I do like the look of FREMM, one glaring problem, and I'm sure its one that bothers the USN is it could be obsolete in the next 10 years. The future proofing of T26 is the real advancement. By that I mean that the direction of travel for ASW and indeed most naval warfare is unmanned platforms. The FREMM's ability to launch, sustain, recover and control these is fairly minimal. The flexible mission deck, flight deck and general space and growth margins on T26 are in a different league altogether.

[Tempest414]

the other thing for me is the French FREMM's are fitted with 32 VLS cells yet they only carry 16 anti air missiles and 16 other weapons and yet we slam type 31 for only carrying 24 CAMM

[serge750]

I do admire the FREMM's & It seem the program have gone quite well ( compared to the T26 politicly induced delay/indecision ) for both country's, is the price lower because both countrys seem to support their own building yards or just of a smaller weapon load ?