Italian Armed Forces

[Lord Jim]

It is hardly surprising we have possibly future proofed the T-26, the Royal Navy have asked it to be figuratively fitted with everything but the Kitchen sink and I believe they are the largest escort built for the Royal Navy though that still may be the Type 82 HMS Bristol. But hats off to the Italians, they have delivered a class of ten top tier escorts whilst the UK has over a much greater time period only just started to build the first in class. Well done Italy and shame on us.

[dmereifield]

the other thing for me is the French FREMM's are fitted with 32 VLS cells yet they only carry 16 anti air missiles and 16 other weapons and yet we slam type 31 for only carrying 24 CAMM

the other thing for me is the French FREMM's are fitted with 32 VLS cells yet they only carry 16 anti air missiles and 16 other weapons and yet we slam type 31 for only carrying 24 CAMM

Really, they only have 16 AA SAM?

[Meriv9]

We have space for 32VLS but we use only 16(for now), and use the space for the crew.

[Meriv9]

P.s. you are comparing a 600mln ship delivered on time as planned (thus the low cost) to a 1bln one.

If for example we consider chinese demographics as a parameter for their window of opportunity for a conflict, the australians Types are completely out of schedule to be useful.


I think it is pretty obvious the T26 is better considering 10years of advancement and a price 66% higher.

For a rightfull comparison compare price/quality/timing against possible menaces.

And to be honest it looks hard for the FREMM to "loose". Just in case for the FFGX if i were the Navy I would have chosen the Type26 ( it is ridiculous to ask just for existing ships if you are going to modify them to that point).

[Timmymagic]

I think it is pretty obvious the T26 is better considering 10years of advancement and a price 66% higher.

I do like the FREMM. It's a good programme, delivering a very capable ship. Although the T26 will take a long, long time to be completed in comparison, the design and concept of operations actually came from the same time as the FREMM. That's why I'm surprised about the limited capability onboard for unmanned platforms on FREMM. It's been obvious for at least 20 years that that was the direction of travel (I know there were issues with its design but BAE's UXV Combatant concept was around in 2006 and there were many others before it).

[Tempest414]

Let me be clear I think FREMM it's self and the program to build them is very good and have delivered both main the Italians and French top tier ships my point is more two points

Point 1 ) that people are quick to knock the Type 26 program but it will deliver 8 world class ASW escorts to the RN and 30 + world class escorts to 3 Commonwealth Navies. Yes the program is badly run by HMG for the most part as proper year on year funding would of allowed 9 ships to be built for the same 8 billion if HMG didn't drag out payments and time lines

Point 2 ) That people are quick to knock Type 31 for only having 24 CAMM plus a 57mm and 2 40mm yet feel FREMM in its French form with it's 16 x Aster 15's 1 x 76mm and 2 x 20mm is good

For me I am surprised that the Italians have not gone for 24 cells and CAMM allowing them to carry 32 CAMM in 8 cells and have 16 cell for other weapons the fact that FREMM can be fitted with 32 VLS yet carry so little in them has me stumped

[dmereifield]

Let me be clear I think FREMM it's self and the program to build them is very good and have delivered both main the Italians and French top tier ships my point is more two points

Point 1 ) that people are quick to knock the Type 26 program but it will deliver 8 world class ASW escorts to the RN and 30 + world class escorts to 3 Commonwealth Navies. Yes the program is badly run by HMG for the most part as proper year on year funding would of allowed 9 ships to be built for the same 8 billion if HMG didn't drag out payments and time lines

Point 2 ) That people are quick to knock Type 31 for only having 24 CAMM plus a 57mm and 2 40mm yet feel FREMM in its French form with it's 16 x Aster 15's 1 x 76mm and 2 x 20mm is good

For me I am surprised that the Italians have not gone for 24 cells and CAMM allowing them to carry 32 CAMM in 8 cells and have 16 cell for other weapons the fact that FREMM can be fitted with 32 VLS yet carry so little in them has me stumped

I wasn't being critical of the FREMM programme (which seems to have been well delivered), nor was I making a comparison with the T26, my thoughts were more along point 2 that you raised in the post above (and more broadly that 16 AA SAM seems awfully low vs any tier 1 frigate globally)

[abc123]

I wasn't being critical of the FREMM programme (which seems to have been well delivered), nor was I making a comparison with the T26, my thoughts were more along point 2 that you raised in the post above (and more broadly that 16 AA SAM seems awfully low vs any tier 1 frigate globally)

Well, if the RN can pull trough with 0 missiles ( and just 2 CIWS ) on their THE MOST CAPITAL UNIT ( QE-carriers ), why shouldn't Italians do the same with much less important frigate, even more because they will, if anything goes wrong, probably be the first ship to pull back from fight ( or not even take a place in it anyway )?

[dmereifield]

I wasn't being critical of the FREMM programme (which seems to have been well delivered), nor was I making a comparison with the T26, my thoughts were more along point 2 that you raised in the post above (and more broadly that 16 AA SAM seems awfully low vs any tier 1 frigate globally)

Well, if the RN can pull trough with 0 missiles ( and just 2 CIWS ) on their THE MOST CAPITAL UNIT ( QE-carriers ), why shouldn't Italians do the same with much less important frigate, even more because they will, if anything goes wrong, probably be the first ship to pull back from fight ( or not even take a place in it anyway )?

I don't disagree about the lack of AAW SAM for the QE class, but at all times they will be escorted by multiple vessels with each carrying a minimum of 24 AAW SAM. I'm not taking shots at the Italian navy, it seems to me that they have very capable ships, excellent building and procurement programmes, and get excellent value for money. I wish the RN/MoD were half as efficient. It just surprised me that their tier 1 escorts, which presumably are sometimes used in solo deployments or to escort assets that themselves have few/0 AAW SAM

[Lord Jim]

My issue with the T-26 programme is that the programme in its various incarnations has been going on for over 30 years and we still have to wait another seven of the first ship to be completed. By then the Italians will have all their FREMM in service and will probably be launcher at least one of their new Anti Air Destroyers and be well into their light frigate programme. WE may have one or more of the T-31 in service but the differences is indefensible. The T-26 is basically a good design, but in the UK's case hamstrung by Governmental interference, resulting in the country that designed the vessel will end up with the least capable version and with the fewest in service. As I joked in the past we should let the Italian Navy run our naval procurement programme and let their shipbuilder manage our shipyards. BAE is not interested in providing the best platform it can to the UK, but rather getting the biggest mark up it can. Just look at the negotiations that took place over the contract or the two carriers, as highlighted in the excellent book, White Flag. I recommend people read it.

[Tempest414]

I think we should move over to the RN Escort thread

[Meriv9]

Some news that have just arrived:
CDP (State owned biggest investment bank) has approved a 500mln loan to Egypt for 2 ships.
https://www.ilsole24ore.com/radiocor/nR ... 7_53437806

[ArmChairCivvy]

As far as I can make out, it is an export guarantee
- like Qatar insisted on in the case of the Typhoon deal
- it's not normally that end of the transaction that cares, but should there be any embargo/ other political hiccup, then the British tax payer is landed with the bill... in Egypt's case both this and the traditional country risk, hampering payment, apply

[abc123]

To cheer little bit our Italian friends here, a link:

Amedeo Guillet ( supposedly the most decorated Italian soldier of the WW2 ), Italian Lawrence of Arabia/Abessinia...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amedeo_Guillet

I wonder, how come none of the Italian Navy ships has his name?

[xav]

New Camouflage Uniform for Italian Navy Divers

The Italian Navy (Marina Militare)'s COMSUBIN Underwater Operating Group received a new uniform in February 2020. The new digital camouflage, featuring shades of blue, was adopted on February 21, 2020 in presence of Italian minister of defense. Italian Navy divers were previously using Italian Army uniforms.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... vy-divers/

[eagle spotters]

Riva Trigoso, 22 may 2020

PPA2 "P431 Francesco Morosini" launched today:


It's the second PPA (Light version) launched out of 7 financed.

[ArmChairCivvy]

the second PPA (Light version) launched out of 7 financed.

Wasn't there a 'lighter still' version emerging for units after the 7th?
- my memory on this one is v hazy (I think the news on it, when being speculated about, were 'equally' hazy)

[eagle spotters]

the 7 funded PPPs are currently available in the 3 known versions (2 Full, 3 Light+ and 2 Light). PPA1 and PPA 2 are the lighter versions. There are increasingly persistent rumors that say that the CAMM-ERs missiles will also be installed on the 2 Light.
The options for the additional 3 PPAs must be exercised by May 2021: we will see if, COVID-19 permitting, they will be financed. 1 Light, 1 Light + and 1 Full are expected.

[abc123]

Are PPAs built up to warship standards or?

[xav]

[ArmChairCivvy]

Impressive, thanks.

What I don't understand is why they split the Bs 50/50 between Marina and the AF?

[serge750]

Thanks for the post xav, Such a good looking versatile ship !! looking forward to seeing the F35'b on deck,

Still would love to see her meet up with HMS Queen Elisabeth in 2021

[Scimitar54]

Port Call at Naples Perhaps?

[Scimitar54]

Or Cross decking F35B at Sea!

[serge750]

i'm sure xav could ansaw these questions but any body else is welcome to

15 x F35b for the navy & 15 for the airforce, so is the idea that the airforce could surge on one of the carriers & maybe set up a forward operating base if required?

Also is there a up to date time scale for the delivery of the Navy's f35 & operational capability?