Gibraltar

Discuss current, historical or potential future deployments, as well the defence of the UK's overseas interests.
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GibMariner
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Gibraltar

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Hi everyone, thought I'd create a thread dedicated to military activities in and around Gibraltar (RN, RFA and foreign navy warship visits to the naval base, aircraft at RAF Gibraltar, exercises, Spanish warship incursions, etc).

Even though Gib is no longer used as much as in the past, we still get quite a bit going on.

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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HMS Ambush has made her inaugural visit to Gibraltar this morning.

According to BFBS Gibraltar, the crew will be running up the Rock of Gibraltar in the traditional 'Rock Run' to raise funds for the Royal Navy & Royal Marines Charity (see here: http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/fundrai ... sTeam=true)

(Cheers for the embedding info Armchair Soldier!)

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Re: Gibraltar

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Thanks for posting this thread. :)

To embed Tweets, just paste the URL to it (without [URL] tags) and the board will automatically embed it for you.

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Re: Gibraltar

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Royal Australian Navy training vessel Young Endeavour and research vessel Kommandor Calum next to the Tower at HMNB Gibraltar this morning

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Re: Gibraltar

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RAF C17 Globemaster ZZ177 arrived and departed RAF Gibraltar today


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Re: Gibraltar

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HMS Ambush departed this morning. Unlike HMS Torbay's departure in March, there appears to have been no interference by the Guardia Civil.

"Concerns" were raised yet again by Spanish media about a nuclear submarine visiting Gibraltar, especially after the Gibraltar Port Authority issued a notice to mariners that there was a 200 metre exclusion zone around the submarine's berth to allow the MOD to move "hazardous materials" over the weekend.

The Gibraltar government issued a statement this morning (read here: https://www.gibraltar.gov.gi/new/sites/ ... 7-2015.pdf ) dismissing those reports, saying that there was nothing unusual about the visit, but that there weren't any "nuclear" concerns, neither from the reactor or waste. The MOD of course does not comment on these matters.

Royal Navy or US Navy nuclear submarine docks in Gibraltar - Spanish press/ecological groups: Danger! Potentially blow up all of Spain! Nuclear waste! Danger! Act of Aggression!
US Navy nuclear submarine docks at Rota Naval Station, Spain - Spanish press/ecological groups: *silence*

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Re: Gibraltar

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Governor of Gibraltar, Sir James Dutton, announces surprise resignation, after under 2 years in the role.



The last tweet seems like there's something suspicious going on. He didn't seem to be all that interested in Gibraltar, and seemed to not be pressuring the Foreign & Commonwealth Office very much with the constant harassment, almost daily Guardia Civil incursions and regular Spanish Navy incursions into British waters. Perhaps there was also friction between the Governor (who seemed to believe he'd be a more old colonial style administrator, rather than a figurehead) and the very nationalistic Gibraltar government

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Re: Gibraltar

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HMS Astute has just arrived in Gibraltar, just a day after her sister ship, HMS Ambush departed after a four day visit


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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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The Armchair Soldier wrote:It seems she has her DDS installed too:

Yes, the DDS was already installed on Astute when she made her maiden visit to Gibraltar in March 2014. (See here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mosh70/se ... 8993012874 ). I think the Daily Mail and other rags even published photos of Astute with the DDS in Gib and called it a "mini sub"

Ambush doesn't seem to have been fitted with one yet. Are there plans to fit all the class with a DDS?

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Re: Gibraltar

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GibMariner wrote:Royal Navy or US Navy nuclear submarine docks in Gibraltar - Spanish press/ecological groups: Danger! Potentially blow up all of Spain! Nuclear waste! Danger! Act of Aggression!
US Navy nuclear submarine docks at Rota Naval Station, Spain - Spanish press/ecological groups: *silence*
Well that's the same as Gibralter being an integral part of Spain and an archaic hangover of British Imperialism. Meanwhile Ceuta and Melilla are clearly a vital part of Spanish territory and have no business even being associated with Morocco.

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Re: Gibraltar

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What is it with these Spanish speaking countries?! :roll:

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GibMariner
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Re: Gibraltar

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Foxbat wrote:
GibMariner wrote:Royal Navy or US Navy nuclear submarine docks in Gibraltar - Spanish press/ecological groups: Danger! Potentially blow up all of Spain! Nuclear waste! Danger! Act of Aggression!
US Navy nuclear submarine docks at Rota Naval Station, Spain - Spanish press/ecological groups: *silence*
Well that's the same as Gibralter being an integral part of Spain and an archaic hangover of British Imperialism. Meanwhile Ceuta and Melilla are clearly a vital part of Spanish territory and have no business even being associated with Morocco.
Lol you will find there is very little logic to anything relating to Gibraltar from Spain.

Their argument for Ceuta and Melilla (plus all the other little islets and peninsulas on Morocco's coast, the most infamous being the Isla de Perejil) is that they have always been Spanish and that Morocco has no right to them because Morocco did not exist as a state when Spain acquired Ceuta from Portugal... despite the fact that they were part of the Kingdom of Fez, one of the four kingdoms of Morocco.

By that logic, Gibraltar was never Spanish as Spain was not a unified country in 1704 and even then was a separate possession of the Castilian monarchs.

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by S M H »

Gibraltar would be a good use for one of the batch ! rivers if they are replaced by the new ones. The Scottish Fishery's would defiantly Grab 2 for replacement of the Jura's One could be retained by the R.N.R. and forward deployed to Gibraltar thus providing support to the Gibraltar Squadron. Local R.N.R. recruited crews with U.K. reservists could cover the manning requirement. This would help the reservist retention while providing larger presence than just the Gibraltar squadrons two vessels.

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Re: Gibraltar

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GibMariner wrote:
The Armchair Soldier wrote:It seems she has her DDS installed too:

Yes, the DDS was already installed on Astute when she made her maiden visit to Gibraltar in March 2014. (See here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mosh70/se ... 8993012874 ). I think the Daily Mail and other rags even published photos of Astute with the DDS in Gib and called it a "mini sub"

Ambush doesn't seem to have been fitted with one yet. Are there plans to fit all the class with a DDS?
I believe the Royal Navy has 2 x DDS (Chalfonts) and is procuring a third. I guess all the Astute class will be 'fitted for but not with'. The Chalfonts are moved between hulls as the operational requirement dictates. You wouldn't need one on an ASW patrol in the Norwegian sea. But the middle east might be a different matter..

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Re: Gibraltar

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S M H wrote:Gibraltar would be a good use for one of the batch ! rivers if they are replaced by the new ones. The Scottish Fishery's would defiantly Grab 2 for replacement of the Jura's One could be retained by the R.N.R. and forward deployed to Gibraltar thus providing support to the Gibraltar Squadron. Local R.N.R. recruited crews with U.K. reservists could cover the manning requirement. This would help the reservist retention while providing larger presence than just the Gibraltar squadrons two vessels.
At first glance, it would make sense to have a River stationed here - for one it's a bigger ship and would provide a bigger deterrent (sad that it's needed for a NATO ally... but they do tend to leave bigger RN vessels alone), secondly, it could be deployed for low intensity operations (the Med migrant crisis springs to mind; monitoring shipping in the strait, etc) and keep some sort of permanent RN presence in the Med.

However, if it's just going to be plodding along in Gibraltar waters, chasing a few Guardia Civil boats, it would be a waste of a fine vessel as Gib's territorial waters are tiny. Under UNCLOS the UK could extend the limits of the waters to the now standard 12 nautical miles, which would at least double British Gibraltar Territorial Waters (BGTW), but the FCO wouldn't allow it for fear of upsetting Spain. Even then Gib's waters would still be very small.

(See this map: http://www.gibnet.com/fish/waters.gif - the UK in theory could claim all of the blue area labelled "High Seas" up to the 12 mile limit)

The local RNR was disbanded in 1993/94 I think (HMS Calpe) and I'm not sure if it would be possible to either forward deploy personnel from one of the UK's RNRs or start one up again with locals. The MoD has let go of a lot of land and there might not even be room for them.

I think it would also be a bit of a snub for the locally stationed RN personnel - who do sterling work with the assets they're given - if a new RNR turns up with a big, shiny OPV and they're left with their 2 tiny, ageing patrol boats and a handful of RHIBs.

At the end of the day, even with a bigger vessel, they would be constrained by the Foreign & Commonwealth Office's policies. There is no easy solution.

Perhaps a bigger (though not as big as a River-class OPV) patrol boat could be purchased by the Gibraltar government to supplement HMS Sabre & Scimitar - maybe even fund part of their operating costs, with locals providing support.

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Re: Gibraltar

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hovematlot wrote:
GibMariner wrote:
The Armchair Soldier wrote:It seems she has her DDS installed too:

Yes, the DDS was already installed on Astute when she made her maiden visit to Gibraltar in March 2014. (See here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/mosh70/se ... 8993012874 ). I think the Daily Mail and other rags even published photos of Astute with the DDS in Gib and called it a "mini sub"

Ambush doesn't seem to have been fitted with one yet. Are there plans to fit all the class with a DDS?
I believe the Royal Navy has 2 x DDS (Chalfonts) and is procuring a third. I guess all the Astute class will be 'fitted for but not with'. The Chalfonts are moved between hulls as the operational requirement dictates. You wouldn't need one on an ASW patrol in the Norwegian sea. But the middle east might be a different matter..
Thanks for the info! It's more or less what I suspected - 'fitted for but not with' might not be that bad as all 7 won't be operational at the same time anyway and the ones that are might be on operations that wouldn't require one, like you say.

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Re: Gibraltar

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ation.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/581 ... in-Britain
Britain's failure to tackle Spanish aggression over Gibraltar has sparked the shock resignation of the governor of the Rock.
Lieutenant General Sir James Dutton took the unprecedented step of quitting the overseas territory after less than two years amid frustration he had been ‘sold a duff’.
Sir James, a decorated former soldier who fought the Taliban in Afghanistan, is understood to have announced he would step down following tensions with the Foreign Office over its response to Spanish aggression.
Now we'll end up with some Foreign & Commonwealth Office stooge who will follow their every command, bending over for Spain while they continue to harass Gib.

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Re: Gibraltar

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Governor of Gibraltar Resigns over 'British Failure to Stand up to Spain'
Sir James Dutton, a highly-decorated Nato commander, is said to have become weary of the ceremonial role.

The governor of Gibraltar has announced his resignation after less than two years in the role, after growing frustrated at the Foreign Office's failure to stand up to Spanish aggression.
Read More: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... Spain.html

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Re: Gibraltar

Post by S M H »

My thinking about deploying of a batch 1 river to Gibraltar was that the Gibraltar squadron is in reality the naval manning of 1102 M.C.U. (2 vessels and R.I.B.s) which it replaced in 1985. That the river would be a naval assist that could used for surveillance ,counter drug enforcement and a presence in the Western Mediterranean. It would deter the shenanigans in the bay and eastern seaboard. Provide reassurance to the Gibraltarians and possibly win respect with Spanish after a few drug interceptions, joint operations possibly.
The R.N.R. manning was to negate naval manning costs. Embedding the craft into the Gibraltar squadron. This providing genuine reservists sea time(solving retention recruitment issues). U.K. personnel. And providing some local R.N.R. crewing to provide local support.
Funding could have followed the Hong Kong practice were the local administration paid a percentage of the costs.(I don't think that would be a problem with the Gibraltar government).
Reinventing H.M.S. Calpe with dock yard boom defence vessel and a motor launch was far from my thought s. It would require little infrastructure to base the vessel in the remnants of the dock yard by embedding it into the Gibraltar squadron as the reservists would in effect be Gibraltar squadron personnel while attached.

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Re: Gibraltar

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S M H wrote:My thinking about deploying of a batch 1 river to Gibraltar was that the Gibraltar squadron is in reality the naval manning of 1102 M.C.U. (2 vessels and R.I.B.s) which it replaced in 1985. That the river would be a naval assist that could used for surveillance ,counter drug enforcement and a presence in the Western Mediterranean. It would deter the shenanigans in the bay and eastern seaboard. Provide reassurance to the Gibraltarians and possibly win respect with Spanish after a few drug interceptions, joint operations possibly.
The R.N.R. manning was to negate naval manning costs. Embedding the craft into the Gibraltar squadron. This providing genuine reservists sea time(solving retention recruitment issues). U.K. personnel. And providing some local R.N.R. crewing to provide local support.
Funding could have followed the Hong Kong practice were the local administration paid a percentage of the costs.(I don't think that would be a problem with the Gibraltar government).
Reinventing H.M.S. Calpe with dock yard boom defence vessel and a motor launch was far from my thought s. It would require little infrastructure to base the vessel in the remnants of the dock yard by embedding it into the Gibraltar squadron as the reservists would in effect be Gibraltar squadron personnel while attached.
Again, this all sounds very good on paper, but in reality it wouldn't be that easy. I'd be over the moon if a River turned up here with a plan like yours - I agree with you and I wish it would work out like you said (I really think yours are great ideas), but I just can't see it happening.

For one, we still don't know if the Batch 1 Rivers will be retained once the new Batch 2 ships are completed or decommissioned. If the RN does keep the Batch 1s, it is more likely that they will remain working around the UK and the newer, slightly larger Batch 2 vessels will be the ones deployed, and Gib would be low down on the list of destinations for them.

Even if the RN does keep the Batch 1 Rivers in this hypothetical future, is sending one to Gib really the best option? Like I said, Gib has tiny territorial waters, a River would be too big to just waste sailing along Gib's coast. The Civil Guard mainly use smaller, faster patrol boats and while a bigger ship like a River would be more of a deterrent, they probably won't be that effective in chasing them away when they do incur. I agree with you about keeping a presence in the Western Med, a role more suited to the Rivers, but if there is a Spanish navy incursion and the ship is rescuing migrants near Malta, it won't be much use here.

As for the other tasks, most of the monitoring of the strait by the RN is done from land in Gib already, so that would be a duplication - the RN can't afford to waste money like that. As for working with Spain, the RN and all the Gib police forces and agencies work together with Spain on many ocassions, but since most of the drug trafficking is centred around Algeciras, it would not go down well with them if we sent ships into their waters - the irony.

If a River were here, it would have to remain at sea almost permanently to have any effect. Otherwise, it would spend most of its time docked at the naval base, and by the time the ship is activated and departs, the Guardia Civil will have caused whatever hassle they could for the day and fled back to Algeciras. The smaller Sabre-class boats can be dispatched relatively quickly in comparison.

The mere fact of permanently deploying a larger vessel to Gib would most likely be seen by Spain as an act of aggression... however ridiculous it may seem, that's the way many of them think. It would also be a snub to them as they pride themselves on "controlling" the Western Med & and the strait within NATO and wouldn't like it very much if the RN pitched in.

With the (very likely true) stories about the governor's resignation being due to the appeasement policies of the FCO, it is likely that the next governor will be nothing more than an FCO puppet, who will keep quiet and follow their orders - and there would be no way that the RN presence in Gib would increase in that scenario.

I think replacing Scimitar and Sabre with 2 larger patrol boats (something like the Border Force cutters, with some form of armament) would be better suited to Gib's waters and needs.

Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with what you've suggested, and I agree with you and think it's a good plan, I just think that with the current situation of the RN, it would be a waste of a good ship, which could have a more useful role elsewhere.

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Re: Gibraltar

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Re: Gibraltar

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Re: Gibraltar

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arfah wrote:Might I suggest another artificial reef to protect the maritime habitat?

I spent a couple of weeks in Gib back in 2001 (Ex Marble Tor). We had a range day on the L7A2 GPMG in the sustained fire role down by the mosque.

We got "buzzed" by a Spanish Armada SH60B.
Is this a regular occurrence, too ? How often does their aviation commit a fly-by?

Regards
Not sure about another reef... there are other reefs scattered around but I don't think there's been any attempt to consciously expand or maintain them. The reef and fishing issue is mostly a sideshow I think.

As for aerial incursions.. yes, they have and do happen from time to time, but not as regularly as naval incursions.

Towards the end of last year there was a period where a Spanish customs helicopter would be a nuisance every now and then. On more than one occasion it flew over the airfield and well into the town area late at night with its lights turned off - quite dangerous as it was close to tower blocks. Woke me up one morning around 2:30 am, just the sound of a helicopter, could tell it was quite close but very difficult to spot.

The FCO swept that up under the rug, though a few RN ships have sent their helicopters up over Gib airspaice... one of the Type 45s (can't remember which right now) sent her Lynx to fly over Gib as she sailed through the strait on the way home from the Gulf.

There was another incident this winter where there was a SAR op going on and on the way back a Spanish helicopter couldn't resist zigzagging in and out of Gib airspace, flew very low over the Eastern Beach.

I've also heard about UAVs being spotted very high up, only seen because of a glint of sunlight shining off them, I've never seen one for myself and never heard much about it so not sure.

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Re: Gibraltar

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