Gibraltar

[GibMariner]

[GibMariner]

[GibMariner]

Government Says Latest Angeles Alvariño Incident "Totally Unacceptable"

The Royal Navy, Royal Gibraltar Police and Gibraltar Defence Police were despatched to sea earlier today when a Spanish vessel was seen trying to drop probes in Gibraltar waters trying to take readings.

The Government of Gibraltar joins the United Kingdom Government in taking a very serious view of the further totally unacceptable incursion into British Gibraltar Territorial Waters (BGTW) by the Spanish Survey Vessel Angeles Alvarino.

A Guardia Civil patrol boat was also called in by the Angeles Alvariño.

A spokesman for No6 said: “This incursion marks the start of the summer season when the current Spanish Government traditionally uses Gibraltar as a distraction to divert attention from the problems that they have at home. This year being an election year in Spain, it is likely to turn out to be no different.”

The survey vessel hit the Royal Navy patrol boat with a probe as it sought to prevent the Spanish vessel from dropping the probe into the water.

This latest stand-off which lasted for about three hours.

The Government said serious personal injury could easily have resulted to Royal Navy personnel given the reckless actions of the crew of the Spanish vessel and has noted that the Royal Navy personnel involved are to be commended for the professionalism of their actions, as are the RGP and GDP officers who also attended the incident.

Rest of article and pictures here: http://www.yourgibraltartv.com/politics ... acceptable

[GibMariner]

[GibMariner]

Video & audio of Friday's incursion

[GibMariner]

[GibMariner]

[Foxbat]

So, is there anything we can actually do about Spanish incursions (or threatened incursions) in Gibraltar's territorial waters or is summoning various diplomats our best option (though it doesn't appear to do anything)? Perhaps we should expel some Spanish diplomats from the UK? Or perhaps a larger boat more able to engage in a shoving match if necessary (Saber would have been able to do nothing if that Spanish ship had decided to just ignore them and steam in)?

Surely the current situation where the Spanish, seemingly without a care in the world, either threaten or just actually violate Gibraltar's territory cannot just continue forever?

[The Armchair Soldier]

Former First Sea Lord Urges Larger Ships for Gib

A former First Sea Lord said the Royal Navy needs “larger vessels” to discourage Spain’s “appalling” behaviour in British Gibraltar territorial waters. Lord West of Spithead told The Times that he had been “concerned for some time” about the situation in Gibraltar.

[...]

Lord West told The Times that the Royal Navy’s vessels protecting Gibraltar were inadequate.

“We need larger vessels that can stay out at sea longer and that are faster,” he said.

Read More: http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=36226

A video report from British Forces News:

[SKB]

Here's an idea... put the Illustrious on the border as a marker/wall.

[RetroSicotte]

Here's an idea... put the Illustrious on the border as a marker/wall.

Love it.

[SDL]

Well... Here we go again...

http://news.sky.com/story/1532912/uk-ac ... tar-waters

[S M H]

Time for a river class funded as the Hong Kong vessels were or a cutter that's armed.

[SDL]

Spain's response has been to repeat the rubbish lie that the waters are Spanish, so they feel they did nothing wrong.

Personally, I think any and all GC vessels that illegally enter BGTW should be impounded (or sunk) & the crews quickly (but calmly) escorted to the land border.

[Little J]

(but calmly) escorted to the land border.

And let through after cueing for a few hours....

[marktigger]

There has always been the need for a proper Gib guard ship and with the increases in Spannish activity and the migrants problem further into the Med the Naval presence in Gib should be upped with it being the HQ for our response to what is happening in that region and that end of the med. However what is there spare to sent? could 3 of the River 1st generations be based there with RNR crews rotating through them?

[Tiny Toy]

More reportage here. Something really needs to happen.

[S M H]

The has not been a guard ship since the type 81 frigate H.M.S Gurkha left 30 years ago. Richard Merrion whom was her engineering officer said to me at the time that she would be the last That was when I was on her just prior to sailing There was a promise of a patrol boats as a replacement (That was the Royal Air Force craft that were there as it turned out the following year.) The then Gibraltar Government excepted the loss of the dedicated guard ship. I don't think that a guard ship would ever be stationed at Gibraltar again.

[GibMariner]

The has not been a guard ship since the type 81 frigate H.M.S Gurkha left 30 years ago. Richard Merrion whom was her engineering officer said to me at the time that she would be the last That was when I was on her just prior to sailing There was a promise of a patrol boats as a replacement (That was the Royal Air Force craft that were there as it turned out the following year.) The then Gibraltar Government excepted the loss of the dedicated guard ship. I don't think that a guard ship would ever be stationed at Gibraltar again.

Correct. HMS Gurkha was the last permanent Gibraltar guard ship, leaving in 1983/4 I believe, however my understanding is that a frigate or destroyer was held on standby in the UK to deploy to Gib (should the need arise) within 24 hours, later reduced to 96 hours for guard ship duties. HM Ships Hart & Cormorant (former RAF craft) formed the new Gibraltar Squadron in 1985 and remained until 1991 when they were replaced by Ranger & Trumpeter, which were in turn replaced by Scimitar & Sabre in 2002/3.

In 1986, after a steadily increasing campaign of incursions by Spanish state vessels since the withdrawal of the Gib guard ship, HMS Exeter was deployed to Gib for a few weeks, as were RAF Phantoms (although I believe this was more to do with the US bombing of Libya). After Exeter returned, a MCMV was held at a 7-day notice to deploy to Gib.

It is my understanding that a frigate or destroyer continued to be held at varying states of readiness to deploy to Gib well into the 90s and into the 21st Century (although I assume that by the 90s this would have been only on paper).

In any case, the need for a guard ship has never truly gone away - the withdrawal of a permanent guard ship was probably more to do with a combination of Spanish pressure on joining NATO & the EEC, and the mistaken British belief that this would reduce tension (completely misinterpreting the Spanish mentality when it comes to Gib, which continues to this day) and the seemingly endless rundown of the Royal Navy escort fleet, rather than a genuine lack of an operational requirement.

The lack of a permanent Gib guard ship was not as much of an issue in the 90s/early 2000s as there were still plenty of RN and RFA vessels transiting the strait & stopping over at the Rock, heading to or returning from operations in the Med/East of Suez, or simply exercising around the Rock. US and other NATO navies also used to stop at Gib more often (this is notably virtually non-existent since Obama has been in the White House). Up until a few years ago, it was perfectly normal to see at least one RN frigate or destroyer, MCMV or RFA at Gib per month. Post-2010 SDSR, that number reduced drastically, although it does seem to be picking up again, slightly. I think Gib is one of the few places where the decline in RN ship numbers has been most noticed, in particular since the abandonment of contributions to SNMG2.

I don't think there is a chance in hell of a frigate to be based in Gib as a permanent guard ship - nor should the RN be forced into putting extra strain on its already stretched escort flotilla, however some serious thinking needs to be undertaken as there is a need for greater RN presence around Gib.

[GibMariner]

So, is there anything we can actually do about Spanish incursions (or threatened incursions) in Gibraltar's territorial waters or is summoning various diplomats our best option (though it doesn't appear to do anything)? Perhaps we should expel some Spanish diplomats from the UK? Or perhaps a larger boat more able to engage in a shoving match if necessary (Saber would have been able to do nothing if that Spanish ship had decided to just ignore them and steam in)?

Surely the current situation where the Spanish, seemingly without a care in the world, either threaten or just actually violate Gibraltar's territory cannot just continue forever?

Sorry it's taken me so long to answer this, I read what you wrote last month but haven't had a chance to reply until now.

I don't have much time for a proper response but I think that the publication in this link has some good ideas and recommendations that might work, or at least make a stronger statement: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... /46102.htm

Seems the UK government/FCO has completely disregarded this report's recommendations though.

[GibMariner]

HMS Shoreham arrived at Gib today on the way home from deployment in the Persian Gulf. First warship visit since HMS Bulwark's brief operation in the bay on July 5th.

There was an incident on arrival as there was no RN force protection, instead Shoreham was escorted in by a Gibraltar Defence Police vessel and was shadowed by Servicio de Vigilancia Aduanera (SVA - Spanish customs) launch Aguila IV. GDP challenged SVA, which retreated to Algeciras.

At the same time there was also an incursion by Guardia Civil boat Rio Belelle just off the North/Detached Moles, challenged by RN RHIBs, which is pretty much a daily occurrence.

[GibMariner]

SOSUS upgrade in the works?

U.S. Navy Seeks Better Sub-Hunting Technology to Counter Putin

The U.S. Navy wants to upgrade its ability to detect Russian submarines in response to assertive naval moves by President Vladimir Putin.
The Navy is seeking to deploy a sophisticated surveillance device made by Lockheed Martin Corp. in the Atlantic Ocean. The device, towed by a ship, already is in use in the Pacific. As soon as mid-2016, the service also wants to send to the Atlantic a prototype networked “undersea sensor system” that “addresses emergent real-world threats,” according to a Defense Department budget document.
Both systems are intended to meet “an urgent requirement” sought by U.S. combatant commanders responsible for Europe and homeland defense, the Navy said in a June budget document requesting a shift of $56.5 million to start the projects.

The prototype sensor network will be best used “in a choke point like Gibraltar” or a stretch of the North Atlantic from Greenland and Iceland to the U.K. where Soviet submarines transited during the Cold War, Bryan Clark, a naval analyst for the nonpartisan Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, said in an e-mail. Clark is a retired Navy commander who served on nuclear submarines and as a strategy adviser to the chief of naval operations.
The Navy proposals are evidence that “the U.S. military views Russian submarine activity in the Atlantic as both an immediate risk and an emerging long-term threat,” said Tom Spahn, a Navy reservist who writes on undersea warfare issues.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... nter-putin

[ArmChairCivvy]

A Gib-related question, though a bit random:

The 1986 deployment of Phantoms was mentioned in the passing. I spotted a couple there past their RAF retirement date, and presumed they were being flown somewhere for refurbing (the leading "factory" for that is on the shores of the Med).
- apologies for leaning towards train spotting, but the interwebs knows nothing about this topic

[GibMariner]

A Gib-related question, though a bit random:

The 1986 deployment of Phantoms was mentioned in the passing. I spotted a couple there past their RAF retirement date, and presumed they were being flown somewhere for refurbing (the leading "factory" for that is on the shores of the Med).
- apologies for leaning towards train spotting, but the interwebs knows nothing about this topic

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. I wasn't around at that time so I have no personal memory of it. I've only heard it from older relatives and a brief mention in a book (can't remember which right now, sorry).

If memory serves me right, the operation to reinforce Gib in 1986 was Op Clover (not sure if that was for just the naval aspect or if it covered the deployment of Phantoms in case of a retaliation after the US bombing of Libya too). I also recall reading that there was a similar deployment at the same time to reinforce the air defences of RAF Akrotiri due to the Libya bombings.

No idea about obsolete Phantoms at RAF Gib or if there's any correlation between that and the deployment I mentioned. Weren't the Phantoms retired in the early 90s? I think there was also a detachment of Jaguars at Gib at the time, but can't say for sure.

Maybe searching online using 'Operation Clover' might get you some answers you seek? I know how frustrating it is

[ArmChairCivvy]

Thx, it was landing on that shared airstrip in the 90's that was behind my question. Surely nobody wanted the UK-specific engines and as the airframes were available in the thousands (for refurbing), so why was a pair of already retired a/c there... that has been an unanswered question in my mind (and will likely remain so).