Future Solid Support Ship
Re: Future Solid Support Ship
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- Tempest414 • SD67 • Timmymagic
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Good, if the majority of the work does indeed take place in the UK...we've seen these sorts of agreements before and then for various reasons much of the work gets moved elsewhere. The contracts should be water tight to ensure the UK workshare, with strict penalties for deviations
Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Good news that all 3 are being built. And good news for H&W and the other shipyards involved.
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
This is the really good news. If three are contracted and not 2(+1).
I'm still upset about the loss of HRAS though...
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Team Resolute Images - Some slight differences between the 2 CGI, in particular the number of RAS rigs.
Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Good thing over for the RN and UK ship building but got to say that is one ugly design IMOTimmymagic wrote: ↑16 Nov 2022, 13:18 Team Resolute Images - Some slight differences between the 2 CGI, in particular the number of RAS rigs.
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Certainly nowhere near as good as the earlier MARS concepts. But this will certainly make life a lot easier for the RFA in terms of manning, training and maintainability. The general layout seems to be very similar with trends elsewhere. The USNS Lewis and Clark Class for example in the Dry Stores space and USNS John Lewis Class in the Oiler category.
Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Oh I get the whole thinking behind it I just can’t help but think from a looks point of view it is so ugly. Looks wises Iv always loved to look of the Fort Vic design and would of loved to see a modern all solid stores version.Timmymagic wrote: ↑16 Nov 2022, 13:48Certainly nowhere near as good as the earlier MARS concepts. But this will certainly make life a lot easier for the RFA in terms of manning, training and maintainability. The general layout seems to be very similar with trends elsewhere. The USNS Lewis and Clark Class for example in the Dry Stores space and USNS John Lewis Class in the Oiler category.
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Actually I quite like it. Highly efficient in terms of replenishing the CVF’s which has to be the priority.
Big day for Belfast with £77m invested in infrastructure but shame Cammell Laird isn’t involved.
- shark bait
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Do we know anything about the design / layout other than that single CGI?
@LandSharkUK
Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Excellent news for the Navy and for BMT.
A lot less than excellent for UK shipbuilding. Perpetuates the failing strategy of penny packet investments spread across too many yards so none ever get to be globally competitive. 77 million spent in Belfast will do diddly squat in terms of attracting future foreign orders despite Ben's pious wishing.
Guaranteed to:
1. Be late
2. Be over budget
3. Have a shit load more work be done in Spain than originally implied (or stated)
A lot less than excellent for UK shipbuilding. Perpetuates the failing strategy of penny packet investments spread across too many yards so none ever get to be globally competitive. 77 million spent in Belfast will do diddly squat in terms of attracting future foreign orders despite Ben's pious wishing.
Guaranteed to:
1. Be late
2. Be over budget
3. Have a shit load more work be done in Spain than originally implied (or stated)
Re: Future Solid Support Ship
I think it's good news because it is real and deliverable. The Team UK proposal was starting to sound a bit vapourware / Ajax-ish to me.
Id be surprised if Cammells were not involved in some block build. In Australia BAE built blocks for Navantia. Navantia are experienced at this sort of vessel and if they can up-skill H&W and create an RFA hub across the Irish sea that can go on and bid for MRSS etc, that's a big step forward IMHO
Id be surprised if Cammells were not involved in some block build. In Australia BAE built blocks for Navantia. Navantia are experienced at this sort of vessel and if they can up-skill H&W and create an RFA hub across the Irish sea that can go on and bid for MRSS etc, that's a big step forward IMHO
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
The last point being the salient one. H&W's workforce is completely insufficient so they would need to do a lot of recruitment.Ron5 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2022, 16:17 Excellent news for the Navy and for BMT.
A lot less than excellent for UK shipbuilding. Perpetuates the failing strategy of penny packet investments spread across too many yards so none ever get to be globally competitive. 77 million spent in Belfast will do diddly squat in terms of attracting future foreign orders despite Ben's pious wishing.
Guaranteed to:
1. Be late
2. Be over budget
3. Have a shit load more work be done in Spain than originally implied (or stated)
Apparently they want to train 300 welders in their welding academy. Good luck finding 300 young people who aspire to be welders in the Belfast locale.
Remember when General Dynamics UK said Ajax would be "British to its bootstraps". What that eventually meant was lots of foreign sourced components being bodged together in an industrial unit in Merthyr Tydfil.
Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Next you will be telling us every bit of f35 needs to be built in the UK
We need to be able to assembly, integrate and test major equipment purchases across the services in the UK not build every last bit. That therefore allows you to focus investment into specific high end areas like propulsion, radar, sensing systems and weapons and ensure we can integrate them into the designs we select.
If we ensure as much of the systems as we can is digital in nature that allows the services themselves to modify them to best suit there needs and share data between themselves like app develops in the commercial world.
We need to be able to assembly, integrate and test major equipment purchases across the services in the UK not build every last bit. That therefore allows you to focus investment into specific high end areas like propulsion, radar, sensing systems and weapons and ensure we can integrate them into the designs we select.
If we ensure as much of the systems as we can is digital in nature that allows the services themselves to modify them to best suit there needs and share data between themselves like app develops in the commercial world.
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- Poiuytrewq
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
I can agree with those that are pleased for H&W, but concerned how much work will be done in UK versus overseas.
Also agree that would have been good if CL got some work, even if was to build some blocks. Hope not putting too much pressure on H&W Belfast.
Also agree that would have been good if CL got some work, even if was to build some blocks. Hope not putting too much pressure on H&W Belfast.
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
What are the high end areas of the FSS that 'we' are focussing on? Why even build them in the UK at all? Just get whatever DSME is called now to bash them out like the Tides then at least A&P and Cammell Laird will have some ongoing work rectifying the faults.
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Its a bit more distributed than that with H&W’s sites at Belfast, Appledore, Methil and Arnish involved. Lots of capacity if the workforce can be found.
The workshare for Cadiz will be the interesting part but IMO ensuring that the 3 FSS commission as close to on-time and on-budget as possible is vital. In other words, the FSS programme is primarily one enormous shipbuilding apprenticeship for H&W before the crucial Amphib replacement programme gets started in the 2030s. Having Cadiz as backup is prudent but hopefully the workshare is low if everything goes according to plan.
It’s Cammell Laird for the MROSS now unless that is heading to Appledore and CL is being retained for all major refit work.
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
I assume it will be aft/engine/bridge superblocks from Cadiz with H&W Belfast assembling steel boxes fabricated in Scotland with any complicated small bits bow, funnels etc from Appledore.Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑16 Nov 2022, 20:57Its a bit more distributed than that with H&W’s sites at Belfast, Appledore, Methil and Arnish involved. Lots of capacity if the workforce can be found.
The workshare for Cadiz will be the interesting part but IMO ensuring that the 3 FSS commission as close to on-time and on-budget as possible is vital. In other words, the FSS programme is primarily one enormous shipbuilding apprenticeship for H&W before the crucial Amphib replacement programme gets started in the 2030s. Having Cadiz as backup is prudent but hopefully the workshare is low if everything goes according to plan.
It’s Cammell Laird for the MROSS now unless that is heading to Appledore and CL is being retained for all major refit work.
As regards MROSS if were talking RRS Sir David Mk2 I would think that's a bit too large for Appledore.
Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Didn’t suggest there was simply that, I think that is the best strategy for procurement.
I would agree with you I would have continued with the strategy u suggest and let the Koreans build them. Only reason I would have deviated from that would have been had we only had a single construction yard in the U.K. and we required the stores vessels to maintain a constant drumbeat thru the yard.
Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Agree. It looks like H&W for FSS then Amphibs (then QE refit option?)Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑16 Nov 2022, 20:57Its a bit more distributed than that with H&W’s sites at Belfast, Appledore, Methil and Arnish involved. Lots of capacity if the workforce can be found.
The workshare for Cadiz will be the interesting part but IMO ensuring that the 3 FSS commission as close to on-time and on-budget as possible is vital. In other words, the FSS programme is primarily one enormous shipbuilding apprenticeship for H&W before the crucial Amphib replacement programme gets started in the 2030s. Having Cadiz as backup is prudent but hopefully the workshare is low if everything goes according to plan.
It’s Cammell Laird for the MROSS now unless that is heading to Appledore and CL is being retained for all major refit work.
CL for the second MROSS which should be a clone of RSS SDA, and refit work, and blocks
Scotland for Frigates
Barrow for Subs
Appledore for OPVs and smaller (Border patrol cutters?)
If it turns out that H&W cannot recruit 300 welders even with the prospect of a 15-20 year pipeline then we really should be moving the whole lot to Korea. ( I noticed their advert doesn't specifically say "young", also talks about requalifying oldies )
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
I don’t think they will have the problems getting people that is made out here. Where H&W have shipyards that will be involved in this, it will be a much welcomed jobs and more importantly career opportunity for manySD67 wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 09:04Agree. It looks like H&W for FSS then Amphibs (then QE refit option?)Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑16 Nov 2022, 20:57Its a bit more distributed than that with H&W’s sites at Belfast, Appledore, Methil and Arnish involved. Lots of capacity if the workforce can be found.
The workshare for Cadiz will be the interesting part but IMO ensuring that the 3 FSS commission as close to on-time and on-budget as possible is vital. In other words, the FSS programme is primarily one enormous shipbuilding apprenticeship for H&W before the crucial Amphib replacement programme gets started in the 2030s. Having Cadiz as backup is prudent but hopefully the workshare is low if everything goes according to plan.
It’s Cammell Laird for the MROSS now unless that is heading to Appledore and CL is being retained for all major refit work.
CL for the second MROSS which should be a clone of RSS SDA, and refit work, and blocks
Scotland for Frigates
Barrow for Subs
Appledore for OPVs and smaller (Border patrol cutters?)
If it turns out that H&W cannot recruit 300 welders even with the prospect of a 15-20 year pipeline then we really should be moving the whole lot to Korea. ( I noticed their advert doesn't specifically say "young", also talks about requalifying oldies )
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
Something like this:
Govan/Scotstoun: T26 followed by T83
Rosyth: T31 followed by T32 plus all CVF refits
H&W Belfast: FSS followed by Amphibs and Wave/Point replacements
H&W Appledore: All Survey, OPV and Patrol vessels
Barrow: All Subs
Cammell Laird: RFA refit work
Also, I am not entirely convinced about another RRS SDA for the MROSS for a couple of
reasons. Rolls Royce sold its commercial marine business to Kongsberg in 2018. Not a deal breaker but perhaps a bit more problematic due to the intended use of the vessel. Also, the RRS SDA was specifically designed for Antarctic research work. The ice breaker facility and large accommodation allocation really isn’t needed for the MROSS. The forward facing hanger is small, can a Wildcat even fit? Looks tight. The design could be adapted but adapting to RN standards could be expensive.
An adapted BMT design built at Appledore seems just as likely IMO. Something derived from Salvas perhaps,
https://www.bmt.org/projects/project/33 ... liary-ship
The welders will be found if the terms and conditions are generous enough but rebuilding an industrial capacity on that scale won’t be easy.If it turns out that H&W cannot recruit 300 welders even with the prospect of a 15-20 year pipeline then we really should be moving the whole lot to Korea. ( I noticed their advert doesn't specifically say "young", also talks about requalifying oldies )
- shark bait
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
My experience (designing and building oil platforms), is finding fabricators/technicians/electricians is very difficult.
Often they will be contracted in because the lead does not want to take on the liability, and often those contracts go to Europeans because there is a skill shortage in the UK. For example, just last week I has two Romanians wiring up my equipment and now they've gone.
In this instance, I fully expect they'll be contracting in the Spanish because I doubt they have the skills in Belfast.
@LandSharkUK
Re: Future Solid Support Ship
I fully expect they’ll be using contractors too everyone does. And I fully expect they will use Navantia to fill the experienced positions.shark bait wrote: ↑17 Nov 2022, 09:49My experience (designing and building oil platforms), is finding fabricators/technicians/electricians is very difficult.
Often they will be contracted in because the lead does not want to take on the liability, and often those contracts go to Europeans because there is a skill shortage in the UK. For example, just last week I has two Romanians wiring up my equipment and now they've gone.
In this instance, I fully expect they'll be contracting in the Spanish because I doubt they have the skills in Belfast.
My point is there looking to and have been recruiting and looking to train people it won’t be overnight but they will have people that are willing to be trained.
- Tempest414
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Re: Future Solid Support Ship
I agree I see a lot of Spanish coming and going in Belfast over the next few years and the only way this can work is for there to be on going work with a British workforce taking over as they are trained