Future Solid Support Ship

[shark bait]

All the power and propulsion plant (the most difficult part) will all be done is Spain.

Finnish engines and French motors installed in Spain and then floated to Belfast.

[Repulse]

Typical bollocks - it’s a dream about building UK ship building capabilities , at least the Tide build was honest

[Poiuytrewq]

Belfast gains zero experience on engine, intake-exhausts, shafts, ladders, bridges, all the heart of a “ship”.

Long road to go through, to get to be able get full ship order?

Its not perfect but we are where we are.

Better solution?

[donald_of_tokyo]

Belfast gains zero experience on engine, intake-exhausts, shafts, ladders, bridges, all the heart of a “ship”.

Long road to go through, to get to be able get full ship order?

Its not perfect but we are where we are.

Better solution?

Im rather thinking of, Rosyth and Belfast, joint venture for MRSS and Point replacement.

Rosyth can (at least better) build the propulsion part, and Belfast doing the other hull, welding the two parts at either site.

Oh, Cammel laird can also do the propulsion part. Block build in a few location is inefficient, but if the politics cannot allow merged shipyard, at least for the time being, workshare might be a candidate.

[edit] here I realistically assume the budget will NOT allow T32, MRSS, Point-R, and MROSS2 all to survive.

[Poiuytrewq]

Im rather thinking of, Rosyth and Belfast, joint venture for MRSS and Point replacement.

Rosyth can (at least better) build the propulsion part, and Belfast doing the other hull, welding the two parts at either site.

Oh, Cammel laird can also do the propulsion part. Block build in a few location is inefficient, but if the politics cannot allow merged shipyard, at least for the time being, workshare might be a candidate.

[edit] here I realistically assume the budget will NOT allow T32, MRSS, Point-R, and MROSS2 all to survive.

The big unknown is Navantia’s involvement over the longer term. If H&W progress well could a much larger player purchase the facility? I wouldn’t rule it out.

A change of government next year could almost immediately embark of a shipbuilding blitz. As a short term boost it would help immensely but disaster would follow when the drumbeat stops.

With so much needed all at the same time the drumbeat is difficult to set. Really the FSS should be being build between 2018-2026 followed by the Point replacements between 2026-2030 with the Amphibs following on from 2030 to get the first Albion replacement commissioned around 2032. The MROSS and LSV’s just complicate the drumbeat further.

Clearly everything can’t be built at once so a sensible pipeline needs to be funded to get a credible drumbeat established.

£1.2in per annum will sort it.

68295BD6-345C-4AE4-A984-12BE0C56A534.jpeg

[tomuk]

It looks good. Once the assembly and integration are included it's probably 60% UK over the course of the contract, and frankly you wouldn't want to try for anything more, it would be asking for trouble.

If Team Resolute pull this off and at the end of the contract there's a fully functioning shipyard in Belfast capable of building ships that big - who knows, why not get back into cruise liners, they already service them. Start of a beautiful friendship

Looks like all 3 hulls’ stern sections are to be built at Spain?

Then, Belfast gains zero experience on engine, intake-exhausts, shafts, ladders, bridges, all the heart of a “ship”.

Long road to go through, to get to be able get full ship order?

H&W last built a complete ship 20 years ago when MV Anvil Point was launched. Four years ago after a 15 year period of decline they went bust. Ifrastrata bought them out of administration and reopened the yard. We need to walk before we run as they say.

[SD67]

It looks good. Once the assembly and integration are included it's probably 60% UK over the course of the contract, and frankly you wouldn't want to try for anything more, it would be asking for trouble.

If Team Resolute pull this off and at the end of the contract there's a fully functioning shipyard in Belfast capable of building ships that big - who knows, why not get back into cruise liners, they already service them. Start of a beautiful friendship

Looks like all 3 hulls’ stern sections are to be built at Spain?

Then, Belfast gains zero experience on engine, intake-exhausts, shafts, ladders, bridges, all the heart of a “ship”.

Long road to go through, to get to be able get full ship order?

That was the 1970s argument against us getting involved in Airbus

[SD67]

Im rather thinking of, Rosyth and Belfast, joint venture for MRSS and Point replacement.

Rosyth can (at least better) build the propulsion part, and Belfast doing the other hull, welding the two parts at either site.

Oh, Cammel laird can also do the propulsion part. Block build in a few location is inefficient, but if the politics cannot allow merged shipyard, at least for the time being, workshare might be a candidate.

Examples of distributed build :

Danish IH class : Main hull blocks built in Lithuania and Estonia, assembly and fitout in Denmark
Spanish SSKs : End of the Pressure Hull built in Barrow
Italian Fremm : Hull built at Riva Trigoso, fit out at Muggiano
T26 : Ditto Govan and Scotstoun
Australian Hobart Class : Blocks built in 3 Australian Shipyards plus Spain
Meyer Werft Cruise Ships : Blocks built in Poland, Assembly / fitout in Germany
Boeing 787 : Wings made in Japan, half the fuselage made in Italy, assembly in Seattle
Every Airbus ever built : Wings made in UK, assembly Tolouse / Hamburg

[Poiuytrewq]

Examples of distributed build :

IMO,

- Govan/Scotstoun should concentrate on building the Tier 1 escorts

- Rosyth should concentrate on the Tier2 escorts plus OPVs

- H&W Belfast should be the main UK assembly yard for commercial shipbuilding. Rosyth, Appledore, A&P, Cammel Laird, Ferguson etc can all bid for blocks.

If HMG feeds the order book it will work and it will work well.

[Bongodog]

Im rather thinking of, Rosyth and Belfast, joint venture for MRSS and Point replacement.

Rosyth can (at least better) build the propulsion part, and Belfast doing the other hull, welding the two parts at either site.

Oh, Cammel laird can also do the propulsion part. Block build in a few location is inefficient, but if the politics cannot allow merged shipyard, at least for the time being, workshare might be a candidate.

[edit] here I realistically assume the budget will NOT allow T32, MRSS, Point-R, and MROSS2 all to survive.

The big unknown is Navantia’s involvement over the longer term. If H&W progress well could a much larger player purchase the facility? I wouldn’t rule it out.

A change of government next year could almost immediately embark of a shipbuilding blitz. As a short term boost it would help immensely but disaster would follow when the drumbeat stops.

With so much needed all at the same time the drumbeat is difficult to set. Really the FSS should be being build between 2018-2026 followed by the Point replacements between 2026-2030 with the Amphibs following on from 2030 to get the first Albion replacement commissioned around 2032. The MROSS and LSV’s just complicate the drumbeat further.

Clearly everything can’t be built at once so a sensible pipeline needs to be funded to get a credible drumbeat established.

£1.2in per annum will sort it.
68295BD6-345C-4AE4-A984-12BE0C56A534.jpeg

A change of government will far more likely result in yet another defence review and no orders at all whilst it takes place.
Also when in the past 70 years has an incoming Labour Govt resulted in increased military spending ?

[Poiuytrewq]

A change of government will far more likely result in yet another defence review and no orders at all whilst it takes place.

True.

Also when in the past 70 years has an incoming Labour Govt resulted in increased military spending ?

An increase isn’t necessary. A change of priorities inside the current budgetary envelope is virtually guaranteed.

Highly likely that a new administration would have a radically different view of UK industrial policy leading to a flurry of orders for the yards.

The ultimate result would be boom and bust for UK Shipbuilding all over again.

[new guy]

An increase isn’t necessary. A change of priorities inside the current budgetary envelope is virtually guaranteed.

Highly likely that a new administration would have a radically different view of UK industrial policy leading to a flurry of orders for the yards.

The ultimate result would be boom and bust for UK Shipbuilding all over again.

1) Yes, money doesn't fix the bigger problem, how we waist too much off it.
2) Carry on, I am interested.

[Poiuytrewq]

2) Carry on, I am interested.

With what?

[new guy]

2) Carry on, I am interested.

With what?

Highly likely that a new administration would have a radically different view of UK industrial policy leading to a flurry of orders for the yards.

The ultimate result would be boom and bust for UK Shipbuilding all over again.

[Poiuytrewq]

Highly likely that a new administration would have a radically different view of UK industrial policy leading to a flurry of orders for the yards.

The ultimate result would be boom and bust for UK Shipbuilding all over again.

Who knows?

Speculation based on historical president suggests it is likely that metal bashing will be prioritised over technology and less will be procured from abroad but greater involvement with our Euro friends would be assured.

The full 138x F35b procurement would not be prioritised, safe to say. In fact a reduction in the ambition of Carrier Strike may be used to fund other projects.

It’s likely the Navantia deal for the FSS would not have gone ahead under a Labour administration but with contracts signed it’s unlike to be halted due to the importance of the vessels.

The follow on T31 batch would seem very likely to be approved and perhaps Cammel Laird would get the nod for the Point replacements to keep the lights on in Birkenhead.

Whatever the Albion replacements ultimately become they would likely be fully UK built and with lots of metal bashing man hours involved so they might be more impressive than expected.

One thing is for sure it would be radically different but not necessarily an improvement over current planning.

[Bongodog]

Highly likely that a new administration would have a radically different view of UK industrial policy leading to a flurry of orders for the yards.

The ultimate result would be boom and bust for UK Shipbuilding all over again.

Who knows?

Speculation based on historical president suggests it is likely that metal bashing will be prioritised over technology and less will be procured from abroad but greater involvement with our Euro friends would be assured.

How do you reach this conclusion, Labour administrations right back to the Wilson Govt in the 60's have strongly emphasised that technology is the way forward only to then pull the plug and order from the USA

The full 138x F35b procurement would not be prioritised, safe to say. In fact a reduction in the ambition of Carrier Strike may be used to fund other projects.

It’s likely the Navantia deal for the FSS would not have gone ahead under a Labour administration but with contracts signed it’s unlike to be halted due to the importance of the vessels.

So no FSS then as no UK yard could build the FSS on their own as its so long since they built a complete ship

The follow on T31 batch would seem very likely to be approved and perhaps Cammel Laird would get the nod for the Point replacements to keep the lights on in Birkenhead.

Whatever the Albion replacements ultimately become they would likely be fully UK built and with lots of metal bashing man hours involved so they might be more impressive than expected.

One thing is for sure it would be radically different but not necessarily an improvement over current planning.

I would more likely predict less ships not the same or more. Defence will not be a priority for a Labour administration

[new guy]

Highly likely that a new administration would have a radically different view of UK industrial policy leading to a flurry of orders for the yards.

The ultimate result would be boom and bust for UK Shipbuilding all over again.

Who knows?

Speculation based on historical president suggests it is likely that metal bashing will be prioritised over technology and less will be procured from abroad but greater involvement with our Euro friends would be assured.

How do you reach this conclusion, Labour administrations right back to the Wilson Govt in the 60's have strongly emphasised that technology is the way forward only to then pull the plug and order from the USA

The full 138x F35b procurement would not be prioritised, safe to say. In fact a reduction in the ambition of Carrier Strike may be used to fund other projects.

It’s likely the Navantia deal for the FSS would not have gone ahead under a Labour administration but with contracts signed it’s unlike to be halted due to the importance of the vessels.

So no FSS then as no UK yard could build the FSS on their own as its so long since they built a complete ship

The follow on T31 batch would seem very likely to be approved and perhaps Cammel Laird would get the nod for the Point replacements to keep the lights on in Birkenhead.

Whatever the Albion replacements ultimately become they would likely be fully UK built and with lots of metal bashing man hours involved so they might be more impressive than expected.

One thing is for sure it would be radically different but not necessarily an improvement over current planning.

I would more likely predict less ships not the same or more. Defence will not be a priority for a Labour administration

Has it been a priority for the conservatives? not really.

[Poiuytrewq]

I would more likely predict less ships not the same or more. Defence will not be a priority for a Labour administration

I would suggest the outcome of the election is as of yet far from assured.

Regardless, RN should be hedging to cover all bases.

[RichardIC]

A change of government will far more likely result in yet another defence review and no orders at all whilst it takes place.
Also when in the past 70 years has an incoming Labour Govt resulted in increased military spending ?
[/quote]

Common consensus is that the 98 SDR was the best of the bunch, and defence was doing well under the Blair government until Afghan-Iraq sucked out all the money.

And lets face it, nothing can be worse that the current inept bunch of liars, crooks and fraudsters.

[xav]

Story by Dr Lee Willett:

DSEI 2023: UK Royal Navy FSS Design Demonstrates Adaptability To Meet Long-Term CSG Requirements

The navy’s two Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers, around which the CSG capability is based, are anticipated to have an operational life of up to 50 years. The FSS ships will need the design flexibility to be adaptable to any changes in capability and operational requirements that may emerge over this timeframe. That flexibility is already built into the design, Simon Jones – BMT’s FSS chief engineer – told Naval News at DSEI.
...
“Adaptability is about being able to re-role the ship in the future. We’re building a lot of infrastructure into the design to allow future capabilities to be installed quickly, ideally within a Fleet Time Opportunity.”

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... uirements/

[Repulse]

Some of the capabilities and roles here could include maritime special operations (with adaptations including adding extra rigid-hull inflatable boats, operational planning spaces, and accommodation), plus container space to carry capabilities to support humanitarian assistance/disaster relief operations.

Interesting.

[new guy]

Some of the capabilities and roles here could include maritime special operations (with adaptations including adding extra rigid-hull inflatable boats, operational planning spaces, and accommodation), plus container space to carry capabilities to support humanitarian assistance/disaster relief operations.

Interesting.

It's not that extreme. HADR has been done by rep ships before, not too hard to conceive maritime special operations considering LCVP has been shown.

[Poiuytrewq]

A useful update.

https://www.navylookout.com/refining-th ... ip-design/

Interesting that RN wanted more hanger space but it was deemed unaffordable.