Littoral Response Groups North & South

[Poiuytrewq]

Game on.

[RichardIC]

Yay, they’ve put three Merlin on RFA Argus. Game on!

[new guy]

Yay, they’ve put three Merlin on RFA Argus. Game on!

That was expected wasn’t it? Have seen any Wildcats yet, but would hope for atleast one may be two - well within Argus’s capabilities (could’ve added an Apache or two also )

[Scimitar54]

Who knows what lurks “beneath”!

[Tempest414]

Well LRG-S is starting to looking like a nice balance across the 2 ships with the Bay carrying 1 x LSU of 250 troops with Jackal's , M Razor's , MAN logistics trucks and Landing craft and Argus carrying a Med centre and 3 x Merlin's so far

What I would like to see now is say 4 x Wildcats 2 on each ship with one held on armed QRA 24/7

LRG-S looks good able to carry out a wide range of tasks in the Indo-Pacific plus able to take surge units for short ops weather this be Medical staff or a second LSU or at a push by the Gulf based Bay with a third LSU plus ASW Merlin's however this last group would need to work under the cover of a USN , French or Indian CSG if ours is not there

[Poiuytrewq]

Operation HIGHBROW in 2006 is a very interesting comparison.

[Tempest414]

Evacuation of British Nationals in the Eastern Med could be the first big test of LRG-S covered the RAF from Aki

As for if the LSU is embarked we know it is as we have seen all the kit loaded

[Poiuytrewq]

Well LRG-S is starting to looking like a nice balance across the 2 ships…

Agreed. Two ships looks proportionate.

It will be interesting to see if a LHD and Joint Logistics Ellida style vessel looks optimal or if a pair of Damen Enforcer 14428 looks like a better mix.

….a second LSU or at a push by the Gulf based Bay with a third LSU plus ASW Merlin's however this last group would need to work under the cover of a USN , French or Indian CSG if ours is not there

As the concept is scalable it’s a question of finding the base level and top level of capability required.

The double and triple LSU surge capability is very important. The highly valuable ASW capability is often under discussed also.

The LHA capability is easy to dismiss as unnecessary and unaffordable but is it more important than a triple LSU capacity? Is it more important than a joint replenishment capability?

Hopefully this first deployment for LRG(S) will start to answer some of these questions.

[SKB]

We already have an HMS Argus and Merlin threads.
Groups should be in the Deployments section. Groups are not a specific Equipment section thread.
Please merge or delete this thread.

[Poiuytrewq]

We already have an HMS Argus and Merlin threads.
Groups should be in the Deployments section. Groups are not a specific Equipment section thread.
Please merge or delete this thread.

Its a General Discussion thread discussing the tactical and strategic significance of the LRGs, the equipment involved and how the evolving requirements may influence the Amphibious fleet replacements.

If you want to add another thread to the Deployment section carry-on.

[SW1]

Operation HIGHBROW in 2006 is a very interesting comparison.

Yes isn’t it at the time the navy’s high readiness taskgroup.

[Tempest414]

Well the QE CSG is at sea now I am sure if she is needed she can be surged with a SSN more F-35's plus Chinooks and Apache's

But yes LRG-S is the high readiness LRG but I am sure that if needed Albion could be made ready in short time in fact if it was me in charge I would have recalled her crew and started restocking her

[Poiuytrewq]

Well the QE CSG is at sea now I am sure if she is needed she can be surged with a SSN more F-35's plus Chinooks and Apache's

But yes LRG-S is the high readiness LRG but I am sure that if needed Albion could be made ready in short time in fact if it was me in charge I would have recalled her crew and started restocking her

Why Albion?

Argus and Lyme Bay look like a good fit with a second Bay joining if required.

Does Argus add anything from HADR perspective?

Also good that HMS Duncan and SNMG2 are operating in the area.

[SW1]

Well the QE CSG is at sea now I am sure if she is needed she can be surged with a SSN more F-35's plus Chinooks and Apache's

But yes LRG-S is the high readiness LRG but I am sure that if needed Albion could be made ready in short time in fact if it was me in charge I would have recalled her crew and started restocking her

Why Albion?

Argus and Lyme Bay look like a good fit with a second Bay joining if required.

Does Argus add anything from HADR perspective?

Also good that HMS Duncan and SNMG2 are operating in the area.

Personally can’t see us getting involved in the need to remove civilians provided the airports are operating and the uk sovereign bases are ever present in the region.

An aircraft carrier an lpd, 2 destroyers a frigate and stores ship the last time there was major issues in this part of the world but this time 2 RFAs and maybe a destroyer are a gd fit?

[wargame_insomniac]

From The Times (£):

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9d3a ... 7e1e198a25

Britain will send two Royal Navy ships to the Eastern Mediterranean and begin surveillance flights over Israel in a show of military support designed to reassure its ally, the Times understands.

Two Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels, RFA Argus and RFA Lyme Bay, will be sent to the region as part of a littoral response group after the government announced it would begin laying on evacuation flights.

Also, in response to suggestions that Ben Guion and Ramon Airports are operating normally:

There are limited ways to leave Israel after Ben Gurion airport was caught up in rocket fire earlier this week. Major airlines have stopped flying to Israel and a British Airways plane returned to London after aborting an attempt to land in Tel Aviv on Friday. There are believed to be 60,000 British nationals in Israel and Gaza.

[SW1]

From The Times (£):

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9d3a ... 7e1e198a25

Britain will send two Royal Navy ships to the Eastern Mediterranean and begin surveillance flights over Israel in a show of military support designed to reassure its ally, the Times understands.

Two Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels, RFA Argus and RFA Lyme Bay, will be sent to the region as part of a littoral response group after the government announced it would begin laying on evacuation flights.

Also, in response to suggestions that Ben Guion and Ramon Airports are operating normally:

There are limited ways to leave Israel after Ben Gurion airport was caught up in rocket fire earlier this week. Major airlines have stopped flying to Israel and a British Airways plane returned to London after aborting an attempt to land in Tel Aviv on Friday. There are believed to be 60,000 British nationals in Israel and Gaza.

The airports don t need to be operating normally they just need to be operating then the FCO can charter flights.

[Tempest414]

Well the QE CSG is at sea now I am sure if she is needed she can be surged with a SSN more F-35's plus Chinooks and Apache's

But yes LRG-S is the high readiness LRG but I am sure that if needed Albion could be made ready in short time in fact if it was me in charge I would have recalled her crew and started restocking her

Why Albion?

Argus and Lyme Bay look like a good fit with a second Bay joining if required.

Does Argus add anything from HADR perspective?

Also good that HMS Duncan and SNMG2 are operating in the area.

So what Albion brings is 4 x LCU's and 4 x LCVP's plus stores and space for the evacuation of UK nationals .

The UK milltary should not get involved in this. Its job should ONLY BE the evacuation of UK nationals from a degrading war zone

Second to its main role Argus should also be used to treat badly wounded Garzan women and children only

[SW1]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67095846

The UK will send surveillance aircraft and two Royal Navy ships to the eastern Mediterranean in plans “to support Israel", No 10 says.
The aircraft will begin patrols tomorrow to "track threats to regional stability such as the transfer of weapons to terrorist groups".

The package includes surveillance assets, helicopters, P8 aircraft, and a company of marines. Rishi Sunak said the military support would "prevent further escalation".
The British armed forces will be on standby to "deliver practical support to Israel and partners in the region, and offer deterrence and assurance", Downing Street said.

[Phil Sayers]

I think getting some Rapier or Sky Sabre batteries to Akrotiri and potentially beefing up the fast jet deployment would be sensible. If rockets / drones / ballistic missiles etc start flying all over the region such that the US decide to directly get involved, the odds are Akrotiri will have some kind of a role; even if just used for emergency diverts it could be seen as a target and people already fighting the US might well conclude they have very little to lose at that point by also fighting the UK.

[wargame_insomniac]

So what Albion brings is 4 x LCU's and 4 x LCVP's plus stores and space for the evacuation of UK nationals .

The UK milltary should not get involved in this. Its job should ONLY BE the evacuation of UK nationals from a degrading war zone

Second to its main role Argus should also be used to treat badly wounded Garzan women and children only

Completely agree that the role of these ships should be humanitarian, but they can also offer capabilities to help police the Littoral area against other non-state groups getting involved.

It will be interesting how this mix of ships matches up with what is needed as part of the broader UK assets deployed. This is exactly the kind of role that forward based response unit(s) should be able to do. The fact that they are RFA should also allow them to be clearly non offensive combatants - it is important that the line between the RN and RFA is maintained exactly for this reason.

I would argue though that LCUs are much less important we are landing supply trucks or evacuating UK nationals over a beach - it will be helicopters if needed (though most will be via flights).

Information seems sparse on how many LCVPs there are in the group, 2 definitely on the Bay, but Argus can also support LCVPs via its deck crane, so hopefully 2 more. Also, I would hope that there is a Wildcat or two in the group also - this would be critical to help support the surveillance of the Littoral region and provide group security.

[SW1]

I think people are living in an alternate universe.

Do you think anyone outside this very narrow defence bubble knows the difference between the Royal Navy and the royal fleet auxiliary?

Even the media here have been reporting the deployment of two Royal Navy ships they can’t tell the difference, not a mission those in he region care or even acknowledge the difference!

If they were to evacuate people by ship it will be from a pier not a beach. They arent putting these or helicopter’s anywhere near Gaza or the hostage situation would be worse than it is now.

Argus isn’t manned or configured as a hospital ship its a royal marine assault platform. So it would be much different to any other ship unless she is reconfiguring in Gibraltar.

[Tempest414]

I think people are living in an alternate universe.

Do you think anyone outside this very narrow defence bubble knows the difference between the Royal Navy and the royal fleet auxiliary?

Even the media here have been reporting the deployment of two Royal Navy ships they can’t tell the difference, not a mission those in he region care or even acknowledge the difference!

If they were to evacuate people by ship it will be from a pier not a beach. They arent putting these or helicopter’s anywhere near Gaza or the hostage situation would be worse than it is now.

Argus isn’t manned or configured as a hospital ship its a royal marine assault platform. So it would be much different to any other ship unless she is reconfiguring in Gibraltar.

Firstly if we want to re-role Argus we can do so in Cyprus it is a matter of flying out Medical staff and supplies

Second we are not putting ether of the RFA's on a pier in this degrading area so landing craft will need to shuttle and maybe re- role a River B2 to the area to act as a armed shuttle

Thirdly as I said the UK should not get involved apart from giving support to UK nationals and wounded Grazan Women and Children

[Repulse]

Do you think anyone outside this very narrow defence bubble knows the difference between the Royal Navy and the royal fleet auxiliary?

Probably not, but that’s a problem because the Politicians do not know the difference either and the options such a distinction can give - does not make it wrong. The real problem is that the Navy seems to want to remove the distinction also - I suspect out of manpower desperation, but it is a dangerous and incorrect path.

[wargame_insomniac]

Do you think anyone outside this very narrow defence bubble knows the difference between the Royal Navy and the royal fleet auxiliary?

Probably not, but that’s a problem because the Politicians do not know the difference either and the options such a distinction can give - does not make it wrong. The real problem is that the Navy seems to want to remove the distinction also - I suspect out of manpower desperation, but it is a dangerous and incorrect path.

Would it be any different if UK had a dedicated hospital ship for HADR and paid for and crewed out of Foriegn Aid budget?

I believe would have to be completely unarmed for such a hospital ship to be able to be painted white with red cross symbols.

[Repulse]

Would it be any different if UK had a dedicated hospital ship for HADR and paid for and crewed out of Foriegn Aid budget?

I believe would have to be completely unarmed for such a hospital ship to be able to be painted white with red cross symbols.

Yes it would be different, a different role and capability. Not saying the UK shouldn’t have a civilian hospital ship (might come in handy in UK waters reducing waiting times), but that’s not what’s required in this scenario IMO, better to get safe corridors to get the sick and wounded out to hospitals on land.