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Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 08 Jul 2024, 17:19
by Ian Hall

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 09 Jul 2024, 13:36
by Ron5
Implies to me that the Dragonfire tests went well.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 10 Jul 2024, 14:32
by NickC
Any thoughts on the cost effectiveness of lasers vs guns or missiles, prompted by DefenseScoop May article where its mentioned US to give Israel $1.2 billion in funding for R&D for their Iron Beam laser CIWS in addition to what Israel has funded internally, advocates of lasers often say lasers only cost a few £/$ per shot.

The 100-kilowatt high-energy laser is designed to defeat a variety of threats, including unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), and engage targets “a few hundred meters to up to several kilometers” away, according to Israeli defense contractor Rafael. // The $1.2 billion appropriated by the U.S. Congress for Iron Beam will remain available until Sept. 30, 2026. The system is expected to be fielded by the Israeli military by the end of 2025, a Rafael executive told Breaking Defense last month.

https://defensescoop.com/2024/04/25/iro ... l-funding/

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 10 Jul 2024, 15:35
by Ron5
Comrade, it is good to hear that guns and missiles are free to develop.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 12 Jul 2024, 10:55
by NickC
Ron5 wrote: 10 Jul 2024, 15:35 Comrade, it is good to hear that guns and missiles are free to develop.


Possible gun alternatives and costs to lasers.

Israeli thinking of re-introducing their Machbet variant of the M163 Vulcan Air Defense System (VADS) based on the M113) retired in 2006 to to counter the thousands of Hezbollah drones with its Phalanx gun, Wikipedia claim the 20mm round with its 12mm depleted uranium penetrator has an effective range of 2.5 km.

Latest cost figures seen the Naval Phalanx CIWS is the Feb 2022 figure quote of $129 million for six systems plus ammunition, spares etc. for the South Korean Navy.

The South Korean Navy plans for its new ship classes FFX Batch III, KDDX, and CVX programs is to fit the new LIG CIWS-II using the same Goalkeeper/A10 30mm gatling gun with a variant of its AESA MFR radar as developed for its new fighter KAI KF-21 Boramae, assume equivalent to the Typhoon MFR ECRS Mk2, understand CIWS-II developmet cost approx. $230 million to 2030.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 12 Jul 2024, 13:42
by Ron5
Da comrade, having others pay the development costs is very good. Doesn't make them free though.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 12 Jul 2024, 14:42
by NickC
Totally agree comrade, definately not free but the queation is guns would appear to be the less expensive option than lasers and as effective.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 12 Jul 2024, 20:26
by Ron5
NickC wrote: 12 Jul 2024, 14:42 Totally agree comrade, definately not free but the queation is guns would appear to be the less expensive option than lasers and as effective.
Comrade, you have posted exactly zero data in support of your assertions. Помните, всегда печатайте всю правду.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 16 Jul 2024, 12:29
by Ron5
From Janes today:
South Korean firm Hanwha Aerospace started production on 11 July of a new anti-aircraft laser weapon, the country's Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) announced.

DAPA said the start of production follows a contract it signed with Hanwha Aerospace in late June to produce the ‘Laser Based Anti-Aircraft Weapon Block-I' for the Republic of Korea (RoK) Armed Forces. Under the contract deliveries of the systems will start later in 2024.

A DAPA spokesperson told Janes that deliveries of the Block-I system to the RoK Armed Forces will be complete by 2026. The spokesperson said the contract is valued at USD70 million but did not disclose the number of systems that will be delivered.

“This laser anti-aircraft weapon (Block-I) is a new-concept future weapon system that neutralises targets by directly irradiating them with a light-source laser generated from an optical fibre,” DAPA said in a statement. “[The system] can precisely strike small unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and multicopters at close range.”

DAPA said the Block-I system is “silent, does not require ammunition, and can be operated only with electricity”. It said the cost of a single firing of the weapon is about KRW2,000 (USD1.45).

“In addition, if output is improved in the future it is a weapon system that can play a game-changing role in the future battlefield, capable of responding to aircraft and ballistic missiles,” DAPA said.

Development of the Block-I system started in 2019, with a budget of KRW87 billion. DAPA's Agency for Defense Development (ADD) led the development project and Hanwha Aerospace was selected as programme development and production partner.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 16 Jul 2024, 12:48
by NickC
Ron5 wrote: 12 Jul 2024, 20:26
NickC wrote: 12 Jul 2024, 14:42 Totally agree comrade, definately not free but the queation is guns would appear to be the less expensive option than lasers and as effective.
Comrade, you have posted exactly zero data in support of your assertions. Помните, всегда печатайте всю правду.

Possible gun alternatives and costs to lasers.

Israel thinking of re-introducing their Machbet variant of the M163 Vulcan Air Defense System (VADS) -based on the M113. retired in 2006 to counter the thousands of Hezbollah drones. Wikipedia claim the 20mm round with its 12mm depleted uranium penetrator has an effective range of 2.5 km.

Latest cost figures seen the Naval Phalanx CIWS is the Feb 2022 figure quote of $129 million for six systems plus ammunition, spares etc. for the South Korean Navy.

The South Korean Navy plans for their new ship classes FFX Batch III, KDDX, and CVX programs is to fit the new LIG CIWS-II using the same Goalkeeper/A10 30mm gatling gun with a variant of its AESA MFR radar as developed for its new fighter KAI KF-21 Boramae, assume equivalent to the Typhoon MFR ECRS Mk2, understand CIWS-II development cost approx. $230 million to 2030.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 16 Jul 2024, 15:26
by Ron5
Silly comrade, nothing in your post supports your assertions. You equate development cost to production cost, totally ignore the cost of ammunition and missiles and just throw in random stuff to see if it sticks.

Russia hates F-35, lasers and advanced radars. Your three favorite subjects to criticize. You be a Putin bot. уходи, идиот.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 17 Jul 2024, 09:11
by NickC
Ron5 wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 15:26 Silly comrade, nothing in your post supports your assertions. You equate development cost to production cost, totally ignore the cost of ammunition and missiles and just throw in random stuff to see if it sticks.

Russia hates F-35, lasers and advanced radars. Your three favorite subjects to criticize. You be a Putin bot. уходи, идиот.
You do put out an amazing amount of crap at times and sometimes wonder if you are able to read. I posted above "Latest cost figures seen the Naval Phalanx CIWS is the Feb 2022 figure quote of $129 million for six systems plus ammunition, spares etc. for the South Korean Navy." and yet you say I'm ignoring production cost and ammo :crazy:

All have seen with DragonFire CIWS is the £100 million spent on the tech demonstrator and £350 million in funding by April 2027 to deliver minimum deployable capability. We don't know what the 'minimum deployable capability' is, one system?

So i will turn it round and I'll ask if you can you quote with source production cost of a DragonFire after your comments.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 17 Jul 2024, 12:47
by Ron5
NickC wrote: 17 Jul 2024, 09:11
Ron5 wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 15:26 Silly comrade, nothing in your post supports your assertions. You equate development cost to production cost, totally ignore the cost of ammunition and missiles and just throw in random stuff to see if it sticks.

Russia hates F-35, lasers and advanced radars. Your three favorite subjects to criticize. You be a Putin bot. уходи, идиот.
You do put out an amazing amount of crap at times and sometimes wonder if you are able to read. I posted above "Latest cost figures seen the Naval Phalanx CIWS is the Feb 2022 figure quote of $129 million for six systems plus ammunition, spares etc. for the South Korean Navy." and yet you say I'm ignoring production cost and ammo :crazy:

All have seen with DragonFire CIWS is the £100 million spent on the tech demonstrator and £350 million in funding by April 2027 to deliver minimum deployable capability. We don't know what the 'minimum deployable capability' is, one system?

So i will turn it round and I'll ask if you can you quote with source production cost of a DragonFire after your comments.
Comrade, I'm not the one claiming lasers are more expensive. You are. And all the while most, if not all, leading Western countries are developing laser systems. Вы с Путиным хорошие партнеры.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 18 Jul 2024, 16:36
by NickC
Ron5 wrote: 17 Jul 2024, 12:47
NickC wrote: 17 Jul 2024, 09:11
Ron5 wrote: 16 Jul 2024, 15:26 Silly comrade, nothing in your post supports your assertions. You equate development cost to production cost, totally ignore the cost of ammunition and missiles and just throw in random stuff to see if it sticks.

Russia hates F-35, lasers and advanced radars. Your three favorite subjects to criticize. You be a Putin bot. уходи, идиот.
You do put out an amazing amount of crap at times and sometimes wonder if you are able to read. I posted above "Latest cost figures seen the Naval Phalanx CIWS is the Feb 2022 figure quote of $129 million for six systems plus ammunition, spares etc. for the South Korean Navy." and yet you say I'm ignoring production cost and ammo :crazy:

All have seen with DragonFire CIWS is the £100 million spent on the tech demonstrator and £350 million in funding by April 2027 to deliver minimum deployable capability. We don't know what the 'minimum deployable capability' is, one system?

So i will turn it round and I'll ask if you can you quote with source production cost of a DragonFire after your comments.
Comrade, I'm not the one claiming lasers are more expensive. You are. And all the while most, if not all, leading Western countries are developing laser systems. Вы с Путиным хорошие партнеры.
All we know to date is that the DragonFire CIWS is that actual and budget cost total is £450 million to April 2027 for "minimum deployable capability" and as a Russian you might not think £450 million is not that expensive for a CIWS system but I do for a unspecified minimum deployable capability, which might be only one system, we don't know the number as MOD as usual hides behind a curtain of secrecy.

As to other leading Western countries lasers you only have to look at the recent US Army field trials in the Mid-East of their four DE M-SHORAD 50 kW lasers, they did not go well.

If lasers are so brilliant then why this July have the US Army decided to start a new programme to develop by 2028 a Mach 8 or 9 hypervelocity artillery shell to maintain projectile maneuverability through interception, keep flight time to a minimum, be powerful enough to shoot down fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters, UAVs and cruise missiles. What's significant is the hypervelocity projectile does not have the cost of an onboard seeker, its guided by the MFPR.

The new MFPR, Multi-Function Precision Radar, can detect threats and guide hypervelocity munitions accurately to their targets, the radar should perform not only search, detection, and precision tracking of incoming threats, but also provide Army hypervelocity projectiles with the ability via datalink to navigate, fuze accurately, and possibly even provide battle damage assessment. The MFPR would also provide accurate and low-latency detection of hostile threats and help guide future Multi-Domain Artillery Cannon System (MDACS) projectiles at long ranges and in bad weather conditions like heavy rain, snow, wind, and dust (which impossible with lasers).

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 18 Jul 2024, 21:49
by new guy
NickC wrote: 18 Jul 2024, 16:36

As to other leading Western countries lasers you only have to look at the recent US Army field trials in the Mid-East of their four DE M-SHORAD 50 kW lasers, they did not go well.

Wow, you got us there, one of the 2 examples in the dragonfire release about failures to avoid and what the US army did wrong.

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 20 Jul 2024, 13:18
by Ron5
And of course Comrade Nick, the US gun & radar program will be entirely free. As will its ammunition and running costs. Глупый придурок

Re: Directed Energy Weapons

Posted: 20 Jul 2024, 19:20
by NickC
Ron5 wrote: 20 Jul 2024, 13:18 And of course Comrade Nick, the US gun & radar program will be entirely free. As will its ammunition and running costs. Глупый придурок
As a Russian i expect your understanding of English is limited as nowhere have i ever hinted guns, ammo or radar would be free, just the opposite, or maybe it could be just your very well known long history of crap imagination.