Directed Energy Weapons

[Ian Hall]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/awar ... l-and-dasa

[Ron5]

Implies to me that the Dragonfire tests went well.

[NickC]

Any thoughts on the cost effectiveness of lasers vs guns or missiles, prompted by DefenseScoop May article where its mentioned US to give Israel $1.2 billion in funding for R&D for their Iron Beam laser CIWS in addition to what Israel has funded internally, advocates of lasers often say lasers only cost a few £/$ per shot.

The 100-kilowatt high-energy laser is designed to defeat a variety of threats, including unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), and engage targets “a few hundred meters to up to several kilometers” away, according to Israeli defense contractor Rafael. // The $1.2 billion appropriated by the U.S. Congress for Iron Beam will remain available until Sept. 30, 2026. The system is expected to be fielded by the Israeli military by the end of 2025, a Rafael executive told Breaking Defense last month.

https://defensescoop.com/2024/04/25/iro ... l-funding/

[Ron5]

Comrade, it is good to hear that guns and missiles are free to develop.

[NickC]

Comrade, it is good to hear that guns and missiles are free to develop.

Possible gun alternatives and costs to lasers.

Israeli thinking of re-introducing their Machbet variant of the M163 Vulcan Air Defense System (VADS) based on the M113) retired in 2006 to to counter the thousands of Hezbollah drones with its Phalanx gun, Wikipedia claim the 20mm round with its 12mm depleted uranium penetrator has an effective range of 2.5 km.

Latest cost figures seen the Naval Phalanx CIWS is the Feb 2022 figure quote of $129 million for six systems plus ammunition, spares etc. for the South Korean Navy.

The South Korean Navy plans for its new ship classes FFX Batch III, KDDX, and CVX programs is to fit the new LIG CIWS-II using the same Goalkeeper/A10 30mm gatling gun with a variant of its AESA MFR radar as developed for its new fighter KAI KF-21 Boramae, assume equivalent to the Typhoon MFR ECRS Mk2, understand CIWS-II developmet cost approx. $230 million to 2030.

[Ron5]

Da comrade, having others pay the development costs is very good. Doesn't make them free though.

[NickC]

Totally agree comrade, definately not free but the queation is guns would appear to be the less expensive option than lasers and as effective.

[Ron5]

Totally agree comrade, definately not free but the queation is guns would appear to be the less expensive option than lasers and as effective.

Comrade, you have posted exactly zero data in support of your assertions. Помните, всегда печатайте всю правду.

[Ron5]

From Janes today:

South Korean firm Hanwha Aerospace started production on 11 July of a new anti-aircraft laser weapon, the country's Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) announced.

DAPA said the start of production follows a contract it signed with Hanwha Aerospace in late June to produce the ‘Laser Based Anti-Aircraft Weapon Block-I' for the Republic of Korea (RoK) Armed Forces. Under the contract deliveries of the systems will start later in 2024.

A DAPA spokesperson told Janes that deliveries of the Block-I system to the RoK Armed Forces will be complete by 2026. The spokesperson said the contract is valued at USD70 million but did not disclose the number of systems that will be delivered.

“This laser anti-aircraft weapon (Block-I) is a new-concept future weapon system that neutralises targets by directly irradiating them with a light-source laser generated from an optical fibre,” DAPA said in a statement. “[The system] can precisely strike small unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and multicopters at close range.”

DAPA said the Block-I system is “silent, does not require ammunition, and can be operated only with electricity”. It said the cost of a single firing of the weapon is about KRW2,000 (USD1.45).

“In addition, if output is improved in the future it is a weapon system that can play a game-changing role in the future battlefield, capable of responding to aircraft and ballistic missiles,” DAPA said.

Development of the Block-I system started in 2019, with a budget of KRW87 billion. DAPA's Agency for Defense Development (ADD) led the development project and Hanwha Aerospace was selected as programme development and production partner.

[NickC]

Totally agree comrade, definately not free but the queation is guns would appear to be the less expensive option than lasers and as effective.

Comrade, you have posted exactly zero data in support of your assertions. Помните, всегда печатайте всю правду.

Possible gun alternatives and costs to lasers.

Israel thinking of re-introducing their Machbet variant of the M163 Vulcan Air Defense System (VADS) -based on the M113. retired in 2006 to counter the thousands of Hezbollah drones. Wikipedia claim the 20mm round with its 12mm depleted uranium penetrator has an effective range of 2.5 km.

Latest cost figures seen the Naval Phalanx CIWS is the Feb 2022 figure quote of $129 million for six systems plus ammunition, spares etc. for the South Korean Navy.

The South Korean Navy plans for their new ship classes FFX Batch III, KDDX, and CVX programs is to fit the new LIG CIWS-II using the same Goalkeeper/A10 30mm gatling gun with a variant of its AESA MFR radar as developed for its new fighter KAI KF-21 Boramae, assume equivalent to the Typhoon MFR ECRS Mk2, understand CIWS-II development cost approx. $230 million to 2030.

[Ron5]

Silly comrade, nothing in your post supports your assertions. You equate development cost to production cost, totally ignore the cost of ammunition and missiles and just throw in random stuff to see if it sticks.

Russia hates F-35, lasers and advanced radars. Your three favorite subjects to criticize. You be a Putin bot. уходи, идиот.

[NickC]

Silly comrade, nothing in your post supports your assertions. You equate development cost to production cost, totally ignore the cost of ammunition and missiles and just throw in random stuff to see if it sticks.

Russia hates F-35, lasers and advanced radars. Your three favorite subjects to criticize. You be a Putin bot. уходи, идиот.

You do put out an amazing amount of crap at times and sometimes wonder if you are able to read. I posted above "Latest cost figures seen the Naval Phalanx CIWS is the Feb 2022 figure quote of $129 million for six systems plus ammunition, spares etc. for the South Korean Navy." and yet you say I'm ignoring production cost and ammo

All have seen with DragonFire CIWS is the £100 million spent on the tech demonstrator and £350 million in funding by April 2027 to deliver minimum deployable capability. We don't know what the 'minimum deployable capability' is, one system?

So i will turn it round and I'll ask if you can you quote with source production cost of a DragonFire after your comments.

[Ron5]

Silly comrade, nothing in your post supports your assertions. You equate development cost to production cost, totally ignore the cost of ammunition and missiles and just throw in random stuff to see if it sticks.

Russia hates F-35, lasers and advanced radars. Your three favorite subjects to criticize. You be a Putin bot. уходи, идиот.

You do put out an amazing amount of crap at times and sometimes wonder if you are able to read. I posted above "Latest cost figures seen the Naval Phalanx CIWS is the Feb 2022 figure quote of $129 million for six systems plus ammunition, spares etc. for the South Korean Navy." and yet you say I'm ignoring production cost and ammo

All have seen with DragonFire CIWS is the £100 million spent on the tech demonstrator and £350 million in funding by April 2027 to deliver minimum deployable capability. We don't know what the 'minimum deployable capability' is, one system?

So i will turn it round and I'll ask if you can you quote with source production cost of a DragonFire after your comments.

Comrade, I'm not the one claiming lasers are more expensive. You are. And all the while most, if not all, leading Western countries are developing laser systems. Вы с Путиным хорошие партнеры.

[NickC]

Silly comrade, nothing in your post supports your assertions. You equate development cost to production cost, totally ignore the cost of ammunition and missiles and just throw in random stuff to see if it sticks.

Russia hates F-35, lasers and advanced radars. Your three favorite subjects to criticize. You be a Putin bot. уходи, идиот.

You do put out an amazing amount of crap at times and sometimes wonder if you are able to read. I posted above "Latest cost figures seen the Naval Phalanx CIWS is the Feb 2022 figure quote of $129 million for six systems plus ammunition, spares etc. for the South Korean Navy." and yet you say I'm ignoring production cost and ammo

All have seen with DragonFire CIWS is the £100 million spent on the tech demonstrator and £350 million in funding by April 2027 to deliver minimum deployable capability. We don't know what the 'minimum deployable capability' is, one system?

So i will turn it round and I'll ask if you can you quote with source production cost of a DragonFire after your comments.

Comrade, I'm not the one claiming lasers are more expensive. You are. And all the while most, if not all, leading Western countries are developing laser systems. Вы с Путиным хорошие партнеры.

All we know to date is that the DragonFire CIWS is that actual and budget cost total is £450 million to April 2027 for "minimum deployable capability" and as a Russian you might not think £450 million is not that expensive for a CIWS system but I do for a unspecified minimum deployable capability, which might be only one system, we don't know the number as MOD as usual hides behind a curtain of secrecy.

As to other leading Western countries lasers you only have to look at the recent US Army field trials in the Mid-East of their four DE M-SHORAD 50 kW lasers, they did not go well.

If lasers are so brilliant then why this July have the US Army decided to start a new programme to develop by 2028 a Mach 8 or 9 hypervelocity artillery shell to maintain projectile maneuverability through interception, keep flight time to a minimum, be powerful enough to shoot down fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters, UAVs and cruise missiles. What's significant is the hypervelocity projectile does not have the cost of an onboard seeker, its guided by the MFPR.

The new MFPR, Multi-Function Precision Radar, can detect threats and guide hypervelocity munitions accurately to their targets, the radar should perform not only search, detection, and precision tracking of incoming threats, but also provide Army hypervelocity projectiles with the ability via datalink to navigate, fuze accurately, and possibly even provide battle damage assessment. The MFPR would also provide accurate and low-latency detection of hostile threats and help guide future Multi-Domain Artillery Cannon System (MDACS) projectiles at long ranges and in bad weather conditions like heavy rain, snow, wind, and dust (which impossible with lasers).

[new guy]

As to other leading Western countries lasers you only have to look at the recent US Army field trials in the Mid-East of their four DE M-SHORAD 50 kW lasers, they did not go well.

Wow, you got us there, one of the 2 examples in the dragonfire release about failures to avoid and what the US army did wrong.

[Ron5]

And of course Comrade Nick, the US gun & radar program will be entirely free. As will its ammunition and running costs. Глупый придурок

[NickC]

And of course Comrade Nick, the US gun & radar program will be entirely free. As will its ammunition and running costs. Глупый придурок

As a Russian i expect your understanding of English is limited as nowhere have i ever hinted guns, ammo or radar would be free, just the opposite, or maybe it could be just your very well known long history of crap imagination.

[Ron5]

From this mornings DT

Drone-destroying DragonFire lasers could be used by aircraft ‘within years’

A revolutionary £10-a-shot laser that can take out missiles and drones could be fitted to British ground vehicles and aircraft within the decade, a defence boss has said.

DragonFire, which was developed by UK military scientists in partnership with industry, is already due to be deployed on Royal Navy warships from 2027, following efforts to speed it into service.

The electrically-powered system will be able to defend against high-speed missiles, drones and other targets with enough precision to hit a £1 coin from more than a mile away.

QinetiQ, one of the companies behind DragonFire, said the device was also compatible with other platforms and could be deployed on land or in the air.

Steve Wadey, the company’s chief executive, said the laser could potentially be fitted to ground vehicles “within a very similar timeframe” to ships and to aircraft “within half [a decade] to a decade”. For example, the weapon could be fixed to light-armoured vehicles used by the Army or deployed to defend bases.

Mr Wadey said: “The prominence of DragonFire so far has been around maritime applications. But the next phase beyond maritime will be land, that’s probably the next near application.

“And if we go into the real future – as we bring down the size, the power, the weight requirements – this will ultimately become an airborne capability as well.

“We’re committed to the programme for 2027, that’s a maritime programme. But I think with the right funding, you could probably get into land-based applications in very similar timeframes and then, probably, within half to one decade, you could be looking at equivalent capabilities in an airborne domain.”

Militaries around the world have become interested in laser guns – also known as directed energy weapons – because they offer a credible way of shooting down large numbers of cheap drones and missiles.

Meanwhile, so-called hypersonic missiles, which move at speeds faster than 3,800 miles per hour, are hard to hit with physical weaponry but could be targeted by laser.

Lasers also do not require ammunition – just electricity – meaning they are less expensive to fire repeatedly.

QinetiQ worked with scientists at the UK’s Porton Down, Wiltshire, defence laboratory (DSTL) as well as Leonardo UK and missile company MBDA to develop the DragonFire laser.

The device focuses an intense beam of light to burn through metal targets and explode missile warheads, using mirrors to focus the heat with pin-point accuracy.

Mr Wadey said it would provide British forces with a far cheaper way to shoot down low-cost drones, such as those used by Houthi rebels in the Red Sea, after sailors were previously forced to destroy them with multi-million pound missiles.

He added: “We can’t keep firing multi-million dollar missiles at low-cost targets. Defence needs a different way to defeat those types of threats.

“So DragonFire is a brilliant programme and we’re very proud of the genuinely world-leading technology in the laser that we bring to it.

“I think we’re at the early stages of a really disruptive way of dealing with airborne threats for at least a generation to come. Clearly, it’s not going to completely replace kinetic systems like missiles.

“But it’ll be a real complement to them in the future and it will change the economics of dealing with those high-volume, low-cost drone-related threats.”

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has said the powerful DragonFire laser will “provide highly effective defence against drone and missile threats”.

Earlier this year, ministers in the previous Conservative government reformed procurement rules to focus on “minimum deployable capability”, ensuring the weapon could be rushed into service by 2027 instead of 2032.

An MoD spokesman added: “We are working closely with UK industry partners to equip our Armed Forces with DragonFire.

“The cutting-edge laser will be installed on Royal Navy warships for the first time from 2027. We will continue to develop the system to broaden its utility and lethality.”

[Ian Hall]

[jedibeeftrix]

thinking about the possibility of coordinated drone swarms we're going to need something than can mass-blat anything in the field of view.
user in concert with lazer drone killers i think it would be quite effective.

[Ian Hall]

[Ian Hall]

[Ron5]

British Navy expands DragonFire Laser Weapon Deployment to Four Warships Enhancing Precision Defense.
26 Mar, 2025 - 11:16
Naval News Navy 2025

The British Royal Navy now plans to equip four of its warships with the DragonFire directed energy weapon system by 2027. This decision accelerates the previous schedule, which initially planned for DragonFire to be installed on a single ship by that date. The announcement follows a £2.2 billion increase in the UK defense budget, as decided by Chancellor Rachel Reeves in the Spring Statement. This measure raises defense spending to 2.36% of the GDP, with a target of 2.5% by 2027.

According to official statements, additional funding has been allocated for the acquisition of advanced technologies, including DragonFire. Designed as a cost-effective alternative to conventional missiles, the system uses a concentrated laser beam to neutralize aerial threats at a significantly lower cost than traditional interceptors. Each shot from DragonFire costs only a few dozen pounds, compared to hundreds of thousands or even millions for guided munitions or air-defense missiles. This feature is part of a broader strategy to reduce reliance on ammunition stockpiles and ensure sustained defensive capability during extended operations.

The DragonFire project is being developed under the direction of the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl) in collaboration with MBDA, Leonardo, and QinetiQ. Recent test campaigns, including those conducted at the Hebrides range, have demonstrated the system’s effectiveness against moving aerial targets. These developments mark a key step toward the operational deployment of this technology within the Royal Navy.

While the specific warships set to receive DragonFire have not been officially confirmed, Type 45 destroyers are considered likely candidates due to their power-generation capacity, which can support a 50 kW laser system. This deployment comes amid increasing global security concerns and the growing use of aerial threats, particularly drones and cruise missiles used by both state and non-state actors. Recent operations in the Red Sea against Houthi-launched drones and missiles have underscored the need for defensive systems capable of countering such saturation attacks efficiently and at a lower cost.

DragonFire offers several technological advantages. Its laser system can precisely target threats with accuracy comparable to striking a coin from a kilometer away. It provides an immediate response capability against high-speed moving targets without the complex interception calculations required for conventional missiles. While the exact range remains classified, the system operates within a direct line of sight, making it suitable for close-range naval defense against drones and short- to medium-range missiles.

This initiative is part of a broader UK effort to develop directed energy weapons. In addition to DragonFire, other programs are underway to create similar systems for ground-based air defense and counter-drone operations. The long-term goal is to expand these capabilities, increasing laser power beyond 100 kW to make them effective against ballistic and hypersonic missiles.

The integration of DragonFire into the Royal Navy represents a shift in naval defense strategies. By combining precision targeting, low operational costs, and sustained engagement capacity, the system could redefine the future of naval defense. However, its success will depend on effective integration into operational forces and its ability to function in various environmental conditions. With this announcement, the UK reinforces its commitment to advancing military technologies and strengthening the resilience of its fleet against evolving threats.

[Jdam]

Do we know if Dragon Fire is a bolt on like Phalanx or is it a bit more evasive to install?

[TorpedoJ]

Do we know if Dragon Fire is a bolt on like Phalanx or is it a bit more evasive to install?

You need the signal generator for the laser, but I think the land-based setup they tested it on fitted in a single container.