UK Defence Forum

marktigger wrote:As regards to blackbuck I've always wondered if we had had 2 conventional carriers live CVA1, Gibraltar class (planned but never built) or Eagle & Ark (both servicible and updated) would the argies have tried? if so how much more useful would 26 Buccaneer and 26 Phantom FG1 have been in closing the runway and threatening argentine bases?

I think if they had been around there would have been no war fullstop. Phantoms and Bucc's with Gannets for AEW would have ended any threat to the islands from the air within the first 2 days. Sea Harrier did well, but it was very much in spite of their shortcomings.

bobp wrote:Just one Buccaneer 50ft off the deck with full load of bombs would have closed the runway.

I thought one of the lessons from the war was the unsuitability of 1,000lb GP bombs from low altitude for airfield work?

Was thinking cluster munitions now very much out of favour.

If one had kept the Bucc would it have been fitted with JP233? One pass with two of those on the inner pylons would close the runway for a long time!

Old RN wrote:If one had kept the Bucc would it have been fitted with JP233? One pass with two of those on the inner pylons would close the runway for a long time!

JP233 was only starting development. And proved so so effective and good for aircraft survivability in gulf 1

Timmymagic wrote:

marktigger wrote:As regards to blackbuck I've always wondered if we had had 2 conventional carriers live CVA1, Gibraltar class (planned but never built) or Eagle & Ark (both servicible and updated) would the argies have tried? if so how much more useful would 26 Buccaneer and 26 Phantom FG1 have been in closing the runway and threatening argentine bases?

I think if they had been around there would have been no war fullstop. Phantoms and Bucc's with Gannets for AEW would have ended any threat to the islands from the air within the first 2 days. Sea Harrier did well, but it was very much in spite of their shortcomings.

Agree. the harriers did an excellent job. In "Reasons in Writing" there was talk of laying down an airfield with matting for Phantom FGR2 I wonder would the phanroms on that one have been reverted to Ground attack and recce as well as airdefence

marktigger wrote:there was talk of laying down an airfield with matting for Phantom FGR2

Most of the U.K. matting was loaded on the Alantic convayor and ended up ln david johnes locker. with the tents desalinization plant and the mobile harrier hangers. Along with a lot of support equipment.

S M H wrote:

marktigger wrote:there was talk of laying down an airfield with matting for Phantom FGR2

Most of the U.K. matting was loaded on the Alantic convayor and ended up ln david johnes locker. with the tents desalinization plant and the mobile harrier hangers. Along with a lot of support equipment.

No 17 maritime search radar ex 3 UDR, soyer cookers and everything else stormen claim was on her......I suspect if true she wouldn't have goten out of southhamton water

marktigger wrote:No 17 maritime search radar ex 3 UDR, soyer cookers and everything else stormen claim was on her......I suspect if true she wouldn't have goten out of southhamton water

That and the 2 fires at Donnington must have accounted for enough kit to equip a moderately sized army..

(Forces TV) 24th July 2018

A jet-powered heavy bomber crewed by five and notable for its delta-wing design, the Vulcan was the delivery mode for Britain’s nuclear deterrent for much of its service life.

One of the benefits of being a RAF Brat was being able to crawl all over aircraft at the station you r Father was posted to. Being at Waddington in the late 1970s I got to know the Vulcan pretty well inside and out. Having an Uncle who was in charge of the ETPS at Boscombe Down also opened up opportunities.

Timmymagic wrote:

marktigger wrote:As regards to blackbuck I've always wondered if we had had 2 conventional carriers live CVA1, Gibraltar class (planned but never built) or Eagle & Ark (both servicible and updated) would the argies have tried? if so how much more useful would 26 Buccaneer and 26 Phantom FG1 have been in closing the runway and threatening argentine bases?

I think if they had been around there would have been no war fullstop. Phantoms and Bucc's with Gannets for AEW would have ended any threat to the islands from the air within the first 2 days. Sea Harrier did well, but it was very much in spite of their shortcomings.

The sea state would have negated the perceived advantages a conventional carrier, the sea harrier was able to launch in weather conditions that would have grounded other types.

Tinman wrote:The sea state would have negated the perceived advantages a conventional carrier, the sea harrier was able to launch in weather conditions that would have grounded other types.

If I'm remembering correctly (doesn't always happen!), a US admiral at the time said the same (maybe were you heard it?).

Tinman wrote:The sea state would have negated the perceived advantages a conventional carrier, the sea harrier was able to launch in weather conditions that would have grounded other types.

Everywhere? At once? At all times?

That feels like a bit of an over-exaggeration of the statement. Often times things like "They could launch when a conventional one could not" come from examples that are niche or specific, and not a blanket status quo for the entire time frame of an entire theatre.

Have you been down there?! The weather is absolutely shocking!! As miserable as the death star is it is better than what was outside especially in the winter. We did the base Mineval as the opfor. My stick was spread over 2 miles despite dropping at 600ft!!!

Timmymagic wrote:I think if they had been around there would have been no war fullstop.

As long as the political pressures on the Junta remain the same then the case for a conflict to distract from the economic crisis remains and the same choice between the invasion of Chilean Tierra del Fuego and invasion of the Falklands. The decision would likely rest on whether the Junta considered British retaliation likely. There was no doubt that Chile would retaliate in the event of invasion, but their military was inferior to Argentina's and they were politically isolated. The Junta could invade Chile with every expectation that they'd be left alone by the international community, but the absolute knowledge that Chile would fight back. On the other hand, even with CVA-01/Malta/Audacious available there'd be a question of whether the UK would respond to an invasion of the Falklands considering that the government had spent the best part of the last decade trying to negotiate a transfer of sovereignty to the Argentines and if the British Nationality Act 1981 and the effective withdrawal of the RN from the South Atlantic planned in the Nott Review remain then there'd be no reason for the Junta not to consider the chances of British intervention to be pretty low.

If they had been around, there would also have been a difference in our Foreign Policy to match. Buenos Airies would have been in absolutely no doubt that retaliation would be likely, if they had attempted to invade.

Scimitar54 wrote:If they had been around, there would also have been a difference in our Foreign Policy to match. Buenos Airies would have been in absolutely no doubt that retaliation would be likely, if they had attempted to invade.

Is there any evidence for this? The Nott Review proposed extensive cuts due to the severe global recession of the early 1980's, how would two aircraft carriers have altered the perceived financial need for cuts? I would have thought that if anything the costs of operating and maintaining conventional carriers and their air groups would have made the proposed cuts more extensive.

Also, how would having conventional carriers change the political motivation behind the 1981 British Nationality Act, denying the right of residency in the UK to Hong Kong-born ethnic Chinese in advance of the expiry of the lease on the New Territories?

We're all a bit too far off topic folks. Feel free to create a Falklands War thread, if one doesn't already exist.

Another excellent video detailing Operation Black Buck One.


(The Operations Room) 7th June 2019

Operation Black Buck One, 30th April—1st May 1982 - 2 Avro Vulcans and 11 Handley Page Victors take off from Ascension Island to complete, at the time, the longest bombing raid in history on Port Stanley Airfield on the Falkland Islands.

When Britain Nuked America.... Twice!*

(Mark Felton Productions) 18th September 2020

The story of how British Vulcan bombers successfully penetrated US air defences in the early 1960s to conduct mock nuclear attacks on American cities.

*The UK actually detonated 24 nuclear explosions in the Nevada desert between 1961-1991!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_n ... ted_States

Didn't know about the exercise being repeated.

I wonder when the 57k ft approach was changed into low-level approach tactics? With the accompanying range penalty
- further, would that explain the basing in Cyprus, in addition to the UK

Nice MoD film showing a Vulcan QRA Scramble. Such a lovely aircraft. Sound quality isn't the best as you cannot really hear the howl of the Olympus engines going full throttle during the take off that was one of the Vulcan's trademarks.