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Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 14:19
by Timmymagic
Warning...long thread...

Previously shown as a concept for the Future Land Indirect Fires capability in 2018 at DVD and DSEi in 2019. Purely in 8 round Boxer mounted configuration....went very quiet...but now its back...has a new name, new launching concepts (some of which I previously speculated on..) and appears to have some real MBDA backing, which could indicate its comparatively low risk (it should be) and that analysis of the Russia-Ukraine war has validated the concept (it most certainly has). Now called....

Land Precision Strike

Basically a Brimstone/CAMM mashup. Important to note that the calibre of the missile is 178mm, same as Brimstone, not 166mm like Asraam/CAMM. They are not re-using the CAMM missile body and rocket motor. Some parts/technologies from CAMM would be used, such as soft launch, fins, tip over mechanism, internal control systems and potentially the Common Data Link. I suspect the reason for the calibre choice is that it means that the Brimstone seeker head, and any internals, does not need to be expensively re-packaged. Different rocket motor to CAMM might mean that one emphasised on slower burn and longer range, rather than acceleration and speed is used. Range will be >60km, probably closer to 80km (if Brimstone 3 can get 60km from fast air launch, and 40km from rotary wing a missile with better aerodynamics and rocket motor over twice the size should have no problem...).
NB - This is not seen as a replacement for the Boxer/HMT mounted Brimstone, but as a complement.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/la ... on-strike/


Original Concept - Future Land Indirect Fires - Tweet from MBDA in 2018
Illustrating Boxer launch module, DMB seeker head variant and E/O seeker head variant...and mysterious green painted Meteor that has never been seen since..or mentioned.



Land Precision Strike - New MBDA Imagery

Boxer Module - Same as 2018

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Land Ceptor - New

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M270 - New - LPS just peaking out of the nearest 6 pack..(more than 6 missiles could be contained in the pack however, so clearly a very early concept).

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Land Precision Strike Datasheets

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Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 14:22
by Timmymagic
MBDA Press Release - From DVD 2022

MBDA’s new surface-to-surface fires capabilities for the British Army are being showcased for the first time at Defence Vehicles Dynamics (DVD) 2022.

MBDA’s ‘Land Precision Fires Family’ comprising Surface-Launched Brimstone and Land Precision Strike (LPS) are weapons that provide precision at layered ranges, operating 24/7 with low collateral effects across a wide range of operational scenarios, from peer conflict to a limited sub threshold operation. They will help commanders to win the deep fight and shape the close fight.

Land Precision Strike​
Land Precision Strike (LPS) responds to the emerging artillery need to defeat high-value targets in the deep battle; targets which may be relocatable and fleeting in nature. So achieving a disproportional operational effect on the adversary.

MBDA is working closely with MOD stakeholders on LPS weapon system concepts that will offer land commanders a step change in capability against armour at range – achieving highly discriminate, highly precise and low collateral effects for both peer and sub-peer conflicts. The plan is to be able to fire the LPS missile from a range of launchers including M270 MLRS, satisfying MOD’s “one platform, many weapons” objective.

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 14:27
by Timmymagic
Some thoughts on LPS' utility...

Note:
I knocked this up when the concept first appeared in 2018 (when it was called Land Precision Indirect Fires) as the potential for the missile...thought I'd re-up...

1) - Spike NLOS replacement - Similar price, faster, much larger range (80km vs.25km) bigger warhead. UK built. No political issues around use/deployment (Israeli weapon...). Could be added as the image suggests as a module on Boxer. The offensive capability of Strike Brigades enhanced enormously very easily. Replaces the poor trailer mounted Spike NLOS system (that by all accounts isn't successful or suitable for peer-to-peer war).
2) - Anti-Armour Overwatch - A super Swingfire replacement. No MBT on earth could defend against a Mach 2/3 missile coming in near vertically, it wouldn't even need a warhead, KE alone would tear through a tanks top armour. A modern diving LOSAT. The speed of response, and range, would mean it could operate at much further range than Swingfire could and cover multiple units. Probably easiest to leave on Boxer and MAN chassis than add on to Ajax. Speed and angle of attack might make it immune to current or near term APS.
3) - F-35 Outer Pylon compatible - Brimstone 2/3 will never be integrated, but Asraam has (and Asraam CSP will). The combination of the Asraam form factor and Brimstone seeker (part of which is used on Spear which will be integrated) would allow a very straightforward integration to F-35. Very easily you give F-35B a cheaper, faster Spear capability but in 2 forms - Dual Mode and E/O. The Dual Mode would be very useful as a SEAD/DEAD weapon for pop up targets. The E/O capability is a new one to the F-35.
4) - Compatibility with Land Ceptor launchers. In a low air threat environment they could contribute to the battle.
5) - Compatibility with Sea Ceptor launchers - A big development. Any RN vessel (including T31, T32, T45 and T26 and you would hope QE eventually) would have the capability of carrying an easy to integrate missile that can deal with Fast Attack Craft in any weather conditions or provide precision strike over the horizon out to 80km. This would be a whole lot easier than integrating a Spear missile which would require a new booster and tip over mechanism.
6) - Export sales - New Zealand, Italy, Brazil, Poland, Pakistan and Chile. Plus India, Qatar, Oman and Australia are Asraam users. As a 'one stop shop' solution to anti-air, anti-missile, anti-armour, precision strike, anti-FAC it's pretty much unique.
7) - Typhoon compatible - Another string to its bow. Not sure if the air to ground aspect could be easily ported to Tranche 1's though, be interesting if it could be.
8) - Falklands - There's no real credible threat there. But sending a few down south to be launched from the Land Ceptor battery would be a useful capability for the defence forces to have.
9) - UK Land Forces get a small anti-ship missile by default.
10) - UK Industry benefits - No ITAR issues.
11) – Could be multi packed in Sylver or Mk.41/57 launchers. Or canisters can be a standalone component, you just need a rack for them.
12) – CAMM, CAMM-ER, CAMM-LR, CAMM variant with E/O, CAMM variant with DMB head…that’s a very convincing selection of weapons for any platform to be able to fire. SAM from 200 metres to >80km, strike out to 80km. I don’t particularly favour it but a cold launched Spear with a booster for when it clears the capsule could strike out to 180km as well, if it was lengthened with increased fuel storage to take advantage of the additional space in the canister it could go out to >250km…now if only they had a really low cost, simpler, interceptor missile that could be launched from the same complexes, something like Denel's Cheetah, for UAV's...and an anti-radiation seeker head for ground launched SEAD...
13) - Air launch from AH-64 - An ultra long range precision munition for attack helos. Far longer ranged than the Israeli Spike NLOS or Nimrod missiles. The US Army in particular is very interested in longer ranged precision munitions to keep their Apache out of harms way, or roll back defences, they're currently trialling Spike NLOS and Altius 600 based loitering munitions from AH-64.

This is exactly what the Complex Weapons Team initiative was about. Developing capabilities that could be ported between different systems, maximising development and sustainment funds whilst delivering greater capability.

Addendum:
I wrote this before it was clear that the missile uses CAMM technology but not the body, its a 178mm calibre missiles (same as Brimstone) rather than the 166mm ASRAAM/CAMM body (the re-use of the Brimstone seeker head, rather than an expensive and potentially futile repackaging, trumps the re-use of the remainder of the CAMM missile body, although there would be parts like fins that could be re-used). The F-35 outer pylon and Typhoon compatability would be less straightforward as a result but would still be possible and easier to do than other munitions. Having the larger body, and possibly using a slower burning rocket does mean that 80km+ is definitely on the cards from ground launch. If an ASRAAM can reach 60km (according to the Australian's) with a motor designed for speed and acceleration, you'd have to assume an air launched LPS would go a lot farther...particularly as Brimstone 3, with a rocket motor at least half the size, can do 60km from fast air..

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 14:38
by SW1
Wonder how much cross over with this

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/06/ ... ssile/amp/

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 14:46
by Timmymagic
SW1 wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 14:38 Wonder how much cross over with this

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/06/ ... ssile/amp/
None whatsoever, but it does illustrate that everyone is seeing M270/HIMARS as a system that will not be going anywhere anytime soon (and Ukraine has cemented that). Sort of the land based Mk.41.

I think MBDA made a smart choice with JFS-M. They could see PrSM on the horizon and that HIMARS and M270 have a long future ahead of them. And that Germany would want its own missile for it (see MARS II being seperate from M270A1..), otherwise they'd be frozen out (Germany was one of the original members of the M270 consortium and built a lot of the rockets, including its own versions with AT mines). Ukraine has only accelerated that. JFS-M is actually the body of the Remote Carrier 200 concept, for FCAS/SCAF, rejigged for ground launch.

https://newsroom.mbda-systems.com/mbda- ... -200-mbda/

UK is already committed to PrSM. But there is certainly room for different capabilities, particularly LPS. The arrival of PrSM and JFS-M could take an awful lot of strain off NATO air forces (although whether they'd welcome that is another thing...). Ironically the increasing use of land based precision rockets (and UAV's and loitering munitions) also increases the need for AD systems...another job that Air Forces had staked out for themselves in the West...

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 18:01
by wargame_insomniac
I wonder how both of the above announcements mesh with the recent collaboration between MBDA and the Polish firm Narew (think I have spelt it right)?

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 19:56
by Phil Sayers
Very informative thread thanks and a lot of potentially useful applications as well illustrated above. With regards the Army's potential launch platform I wonder whether having its own basic radar unit would be viable? I appreciate that remote networked sensors would be providing most of the targeting cuing, particularly at the longer ranges being discussed, but nevertheless having an additional, integrated radar would surely be of some assistance in that it would add another sensor (even if only rarely used) to the overall situational awareness picture? Would reduce the risk of ECM or hacking etc rendering the launch platform completely blind / useless and would allow rapid deployment without needing to hunt around for spare external radars that can also be sent?

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 19:59
by SW1
Timmymagic wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 14:46
SW1 wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 14:38 Wonder how much cross over with this

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/06/ ... ssile/amp/
None whatsoever, but it does illustrate that everyone is seeing M270/HIMARS as a system that will not be going anywhere anytime soon (and Ukraine has cemented that). Sort of the land based Mk.41.

I think MBDA made a smart choice with JFS-M. They could see PrSM on the horizon and that HIMARS and M270 have a long future ahead of them. And that Germany would want its own missile for it (see MARS II being seperate from M270A1..), otherwise they'd be frozen out (Germany was one of the original members of the M270 consortium and built a lot of the rockets, including its own versions with AT mines). Ukraine has only accelerated that. JFS-M is actually the body of the Remote Carrier 200 concept, for FCAS/SCAF, rejigged for ground launch.

https://newsroom.mbda-systems.com/mbda- ... -200-mbda/

UK is already committed to PrSM. But there is certainly room for different capabilities, particularly LPS. The arrival of PrSM and JFS-M could take an awful lot of strain off NATO air forces (although whether they'd welcome that is another thing...). Ironically the increasing use of land based precision rockets (and UAV's and loitering munitions) also increases the need for AD systems...another job that Air Forces had staked out for themselves in the West...
I think it would make sense for uk to become involved if as you suggest it isn’t already. Yeah long range missile systems both surface to surface and surface to air and loitering/drones are seeing there potiential starting to be realised in Ukraine, it will take on many a traditional airforce role, the RAF should embrace it with a modern day project Emily equivalent.

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 20:33
by tomuk
Phil Sayers wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 19:56 Very informative thread thanks and a lot of potentially useful applications as well illustrated above. With regards the Army's potential launch platform I wonder whether having its own basic radar unit would be viable? I appreciate that remote networked sensors would be providing most of the targeting cuing, particularly at the longer ranges being discussed, but nevertheless having an additional, integrated radar would surely be of some assistance in that it would add another sensor (even if only rarely used) to the overall situational awareness picture? Would reduce the risk of ECM or hacking etc rendering the launch platform completely blind / useless and would allow rapid deployment without needing to hunt around for spare external radars that can also be sent?
There is an option on the CAMM/Land Ceptor launch platform to add a EO/IR sensor to allow local targetting in a loss of network scenario.

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 21:17
by Timmymagic
wargame_insomniac wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 18:01 I wonder how both of the above announcements mesh with the recent collaboration between MBDA and the Polish firm Narew (think I have spelt it right)?
LPS dates back to 2018 (and perhaps earlier but not revealed) and is definitely pitched at the Royal Artillery initially. The recent MoU signed by the UK and Polish Defence Secretaries was specifically around Air Defence Complex Weapons only.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/land ... -relations

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 12 Oct 2022, 21:25
by Timmymagic
Phil Sayers wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 19:56 Very informative thread thanks and a lot of potentially useful applications as well illustrated above. With regards the Army's potential launch platform I wonder whether having its own basic radar unit would be viable? I appreciate that remote networked sensors would be providing most of the targeting cuing, particularly at the longer ranges being discussed, but nevertheless having an additional, integrated radar would surely be of some assistance in that it would add another sensor (even if only rarely used) to the overall situational awareness picture? Would reduce the risk of ECM or hacking etc rendering the launch platform completely blind / useless and would allow rapid deployment without needing to hunt around for spare external radars that can also be sent?
As mentioned earlier there is the option of the EO/IR turret on a mast, that was seen in some early concepts. Some of those earlier concepts also had the Marconi Dagger towed radar's used by Rapier FSC nearby as additional sensors. Perhaps utilised as remote radar nodes. British Army will soon have Giraffe AMB and Giraffe 1X and the Dagger radars so could have a few to choose from. I believe the Weapons Locating Radar procured to replace MAMBA/ARTHUR under Project Serpens will also have a secondary air surveillance role. I'm hoping it will be the GaN AESA based Saab Giraffe 4A...We'd be in a very strong position radar wise then (much as I'd like them to be UK made BAE and Leonardo UK between them have shown little interest).

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 14:16
by Ron5
Timmymagic wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 21:25
Phil Sayers wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 19:56 Very informative thread thanks and a lot of potentially useful applications as well illustrated above. With regards the Army's potential launch platform I wonder whether having its own basic radar unit would be viable? I appreciate that remote networked sensors would be providing most of the targeting cuing, particularly at the longer ranges being discussed, but nevertheless having an additional, integrated radar would surely be of some assistance in that it would add another sensor (even if only rarely used) to the overall situational awareness picture? Would reduce the risk of ECM or hacking etc rendering the launch platform completely blind / useless and would allow rapid deployment without needing to hunt around for spare external radars that can also be sent?
As mentioned earlier there is the option of the EO/IR turret on a mast, that was seen in some early concepts. Some of those earlier concepts also had the Marconi Dagger towed radar's used by Rapier FSC nearby as additional sensors. Perhaps utilised as remote radar nodes. British Army will soon have Giraffe AMB and Giraffe 1X and the Dagger radars so could have a few to choose from. I believe the Weapons Locating Radar procured to replace MAMBA/ARTHUR under Project Serpens will also have a secondary air surveillance role. I'm hoping it will be the GaN AESA based Saab Giraffe 4A...We'd be in a very strong position radar wise then (much as I'd like them to be UK made BAE and Leonardo UK between them have shown little interest).
All of the photos I have seen of Sky Sabre in BA service show the EO/IR turret on a mast. Sometimes it is folded down. Here's one with it in the raised position:

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Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 18 Oct 2022, 16:49
by Lord Jim
On the plus side, Land Ceptor can utilise any appropriate radar that is available without any issues or caveats.

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 17 Jun 2024, 18:08
by Timmymagic
New view of LPS....note wing and booster....thats definitely a 150km range munition....

Important to note that the booster might not be required from soft launch of the main missile so Ceptor integration is still possible.





Bit blurry, from a different angle...but you can see the wings.


Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 17 Jun 2024, 18:48
by Timmymagic
Secret Projects have spotted what appears to be an intake on the underside....

Looks like LPS has become a ground launched Spear....


Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 17 Jun 2024, 19:51
by new guy
Timmymagic wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 18:48 Secret Projects have spotted what appears to be an intake on the underside....

Looks like LPS has become a ground launched Spear....

I think we can stop calling it a ground launched spear when it becomes a different shell / hull.

In reality, having an air intake makes it spear in the same way that CAMM is ASRAAM, or calling LPS something like cruise-Brimstone.

In reality, A ground launched spear would just be a spear with modified internals supported by a massive booster.

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Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 17 Jun 2024, 20:08
by Timmymagic
new guy wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 19:51
Timmymagic wrote: 17 Jun 2024, 18:48 Secret Projects have spotted what appears to be an intake on the underside....

Looks like LPS has become a ground launched Spear....

I think we can stop calling it a ground launched spear when it becomes a different shell / hull.

In reality, having an air intake makes it spear in the same way that CAMM is ASRAAM, or calling LPS something like cruise-Brimstone.

In reality, A ground launched spear would just be a spear with modified internals supported by a massive booster.

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Amael Kotlarski from Janes has confirmed with MBDA that it is based on Spear

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 22 Jun 2024, 11:40
by Tempest414
we really need to get Brimstone and then Spear overwatch working on Boxer , Man 6x6 and trailer mounted to give armoured , light mech and Air mobile troops organic strike out to 30+ kms

Re: Land Precision Strike

Posted: 07 Jul 2024, 09:16
by new guy
MBDA talking about LPS ( missile) , and potential for naval application.

( Video link starts at right place)