US FMS for UK BMD Radar

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TSharpe28
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US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by TSharpe28 »

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... ommand-and

WASHINGTON, March 17, 2022 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of the United Kingdom of Ballistic Missile Defense Radar (BMDR) and Command and Control Battle Management and Communications (C2BMC) and related equipment for an estimated cost of $700 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Government of the United Kingdom (UK) has requested to buy one (1) Ballistic Missile Defense Radar (BMDR); and two (2) Command and Control Battle Management and Communications (C2BMC) user nodes (with network capability required to connect to the C2BMC System to support radar operations). Also included are design and construction of a combined radar-equipment shelter; encryption devices, secure communication equipment, and other required COMSEC equipment to support radar operations; spare and repair parts, support and testing equipment, publications and technical
documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated program cost is $700 million.

This proposed sale will support the foreign policy goals and national security objectives of the United States by improving the security of a NATO Ally that is a force for political stability and economic progress in Europe.

The proposed sale will improve UK’s ability to meet current and future ballistic missile threats to the UK and NATO by improving the effectiveness of NATO BMD systems. The United Kingdom will have no difficulty absorbing the BMD Radar into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractor will be Lockheed Martin, Moorestown, NJ. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale may require the assignment of approximately 15 U.S. Government and up to 100 contractor representatives to the UK, at any given time, during the construction, installation, integration and testing of the BMDR and C2BMC capability. There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law. The description and dollar value is for the highest estimated quantity and dollar value based on initial requirements. Actual dollar value will be lower depending on final requirements, budget authority, and signed sales agreement(s), if and when concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.

Correlates with SDSR 2015

"We will invest in a ground-based BMD radar, which will enhance the coverage and effectiveness of the NATO
BMD system." Section 4.16 See https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... Review.pdf

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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by Jdam »

Very interesting I wonder if one set placed strategically would cover all of the UK?

Next getting weapons to shot down the ballistic missiles.

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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by NickC »

Googled
"Lockheed Named Prime Contractor in Proposed $700M UK FMS Deal for Ballistic Missile Defense Radar, Battle Management Systems
ANGELINE LEISHMAN, MARCH 18, 2022, CONTRACT AWARDS

The State Department gave the green light for the U.K.’s plan to buy one ballistic missile defense radar and a pair of command and control battle management and communications systems, built by Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT), through a potential $700 million transaction with the U.S. government.

The proposed foreign military sale will also include radar equipment shelter design and construction, communications security, test and training equipment, publications and technical documentation, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency said Thursday.

Lockheed may be required to deploy up to 100 personnel to construct, integrate, install and test the BMDR and C2BMC systems as the principal contractor for the possible FMS transaction.

DSCA added that 15 U.S. government representatives could also travel to the U.K. to support the project once an agreement is implemented.

https://www.govconwire.com/2022/03/700m ... rtment-ok/

Pure speculation a Lockheed's SPY-7 GaN S-band dual polarisation radar, with its high defination claimed it can discriminate the warheads from the decoys and debris of ballistic missiles. Japan bought SPY-7 in preference to the Raytheon SPY-6 for two multi-billion$ Aegis Ashore facilities which were subsequently cancelled due to possibility of the large SM-3 missile boosters falling on land, now the SPY-7 radars to be fitted to two new Japanese Aegis destroyers.

MDA chose Lockheed for the very large Long-Range Discrimination Radar, same tech as the SPY-7, to monitor ICBM attacks on US, installed at Clear, Alaska in $1.5 billion facility, should be operational next year, Lockheed radar contract ~$800 million.
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TSharpe28
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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by TSharpe28 »

Jdam wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 16:09 Very interesting I wonder if one set placed strategically would cover all of the UK?

Next getting weapons to shot down the ballistic missiles.
Just a radar. Mobile to cover NATO territory.

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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by Lord Jim »

In an ideal world such a radar installation would be networked into NATO's radar and Air Defence systems so that it could provide targeting information to whatever platform(s0 is best suited and located to deal with the threat. I wonder where it would be located, not too neat the existing BMD Radar in Yorkshire I assume.
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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by TSharpe28 »

Lord Jim wrote: 19 Mar 2022, 06:19 In an ideal world such a radar installation would be networked into NATO's radar and Air Defence systems so that it could provide targeting information to whatever platform(s0 is best suited and located to deal with the threat. I wonder where it would be located, not too neat the existing BMD Radar in Yorkshire I assume.
Those in RAF Fylingdales as US owned? So this is different. If it's a static radar, then yes place it there - less more CND camps in a new base. If's can be based on NATO soil, then better.
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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by TSharpe28 »

Janes confirms its the Long Range Discrimination Radar (LRDR).

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ence-radar

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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

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Thoughts on possible ballistic missile interceptors for BMD system if ever funded, all foreign, our myopic politicians stopped development of UK long range anti-air/ballistic missiles/systems as part of the 'peace' dividend.

Ballistic interceptors surprisingly short range to me, have seen the Patriot MSE quoted range as only 22 miles/35 km against a ballistic missile, whereas range quoted as 100 miles - 160 km to take out 'standard' air target, some possible missile options

Atmospheric
Short range
Eurosam - SAMP/T ~150 km standard
IAI - Barak-LR ~150 km standard,
Lockheed - Patriot MSE/CRI ~160km standard
Rafael/Raytheon - Stunner/SkyCeptor/PAAC-4 - Partially funded by US, the missile used in the Israeli David's Sling system, US stopped Rafael bidding for the Swiss anti-missile contract, Swiss have contracted for Patriot, Raytheon has offered Poland the SkyCeptor to use with its new Patriot system with significant Polish industry involvement, said to be much cheaper than Patriot MSE/CRI missile, but US has allowed Rafael to bid David's Sling to Finland competing with IAI's Barak.

'Medium' range
Lockheed - THAAD
Raytheon - SM-6 Dual II (have seen range quoted as 150 miles/240 km, if assume same ratio for range against a ballistic missile as Patriot that would give ~28 miles/44 km range, in last years MDA testing off Hawaii with a Burke only one of the two SRBMs shot down by four SM-6s).

Exo-atmospheric
Long Range
Raytheon/Mitsubishi - SM-3 Block IIA
IAI/Boeing - Arrow 3 & 4 - Partially funded by US, India was interested but US stopped it
Boeing - GMD - $41 billion spent by 2017 for 44 missile system, in 2019 MDA cancelled a new $billion kill vehicle for the 44 missiles to improve its Pk, Boeing will be the lead contractor for the new $67 billion Ground-Based Midcourse Defense (GMD) system.

Long range ballistic/hypersonic missile defense requires Launch on Remote (LOR) and Engage on Remote (EOR) as ballistic/hypersonic missiles so ridiculously fast, Boeing graphic highlights that besides long range radars you need satellites. Short/medium range missile battery's give limited geographical coverage, long range exo-atmospheric missiles, eg SM-3 Block IIA used in the two Japanese Aegis Ashore facilities costed at $5.4 billion before cancelled, otherwise can see only London defended with minimal buy?
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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by TSharpe28 »

NickC wrote: 23 Mar 2022, 12:47 Thoughts on possible ballistic missile interceptors for BMD system if ever funded, all foreign, our myopic politicians stopped development of UK long range anti-air/ballistic missiles/systems as part of the 'peace' dividend.

Ballistic interceptors surprisingly short range to me, have seen the Patriot MSE quoted range as only 22 miles/35 km against a ballistic missile, whereas range quoted as 100 miles - 160 km to take out 'standard' air target, some possible missile options

Atmospheric
Short range
Eurosam - SAMP/T ~150 km standard
IAI - Barak-LR ~150 km standard,
Lockheed - Patriot MSE/CRI ~160km standard
Rafael/Raytheon - Stunner/SkyCeptor/PAAC-4 - Partially funded by US, the missile used in the Israeli David's Sling system, US stopped Rafael bidding for the Swiss anti-missile contract, Swiss have contracted for Patriot, Raytheon has offered Poland the SkyCeptor to use with its new Patriot system with significant Polish industry involvement, said to be much cheaper than Patriot MSE/CRI missile, but US has allowed Rafael to bid David's Sling to Finland competing with IAI's Barak.

'Medium' range
Lockheed - THAAD
Raytheon - SM-6 Dual II (have seen range quoted as 150 miles/240 km, if assume same ratio for range against a ballistic missile as Patriot that would give ~28 miles/44 km range, in last years MDA testing off Hawaii with a Burke only one of the two SRBMs shot down by four SM-6s).

Exo-atmospheric
Long Range
Raytheon/Mitsubishi - SM-3 Block IIA
IAI/Boeing - Arrow 3 & 4 - Partially funded by US, India was interested but US stopped it
Boeing - GMD - $41 billion spent by 2017 for 44 missile system, in 2019 MDA cancelled a new $billion kill vehicle for the 44 missiles to improve its Pk, Boeing will be the lead contractor for the new $67 billion Ground-Based Midcourse Defense (GMD) system.

Long range ballistic/hypersonic missile defense requires Launch on Remote (LOR) and Engage on Remote (EOR) as ballistic/hypersonic missiles so ridiculously fast, Boeing graphic highlights that besides long range radars you need satellites. Short/medium range missile battery's give limited geographical coverage, long range exo-atmospheric missiles, eg SM-3 Block IIA used in the two Japanese Aegis Ashore facilities costed at $5.4 billion before cancelled, otherwise can see only London defended with minimal buy?
Good thoughts where to based them?

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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by Caribbean »

I believe THAAD has managed an intercept at 147km altitude and that a battery (6 x 8 missile launchers) is around $800m - $1b. Probably effective against unitary warheads, but is that far enough to hit a MIRV before warhead dispersal, particularly one with a lot of PENAIDS?
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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by Lord Jim »

What about defending against multiple Missiles fired at the same time, and all with Penetration Aids and possibly multiple warheads?

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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by TSharpe28 »

It's a FMS - the UK hasn't officially acquired the radar. ABM Missiles - land-based - will be when ever the Treasury gives the money and presumably the RAF or Royal Artillery will control them. The T45s don't have the ABM yet I believe.

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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by Caribbean »

Lord Jim wrote: 23 Mar 2022, 17:53 What about defending against multiple Missiles fired at the same time, and all with Penetration Aids and possibly multiple warheads?
I think it has been tested against two IRBM targets, but not against 60 incoming ICBM/SLBMs, some with up to 40 warheads/ PENAIDS each, which is what Russia claims to have aimed at the UK. Even if we had systems that could hit them in the boost phase as well, we are unlikely to be able to stop everything in a full-out attack, not without hundreds of missiles. If this radar can differentiate between warheads and PENAIDS, then we might begetting closer to a solution, but all it would take is for Russia to design a countermeasure and we would be back in the dark again.
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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by Lord Jim »

That is if we ever actually get a BMD capability this century?! :)

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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

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Lord Jim wrote: 24 Mar 2022, 21:04 That is if we ever actually get a BMD capability this century?! :)
Be grateful they post the FMS.

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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

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It would appear the US has dangled a big carrot in front of the MoD by offering access into the Pentagon's ballistic network to provide worldwide warning of ballistic missile attacks to enable Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) Launch on Remote (LOR) and Engage on Remote (EOR) to dramatically improve the effectiveness/coverage of the longer range anti-ballistic missiles as the incentive to Buy American kit

US has spent many tens of $billions on its ballistic network, my limited understanding eg OPIR, Overhead Persistent Infrared satelites to monitor launch of missiles, SBIRS, Space-Based Infrared System, High, to replace the Defense Support Program (DSP) satellites and is intended primarily to provide enhanced strategic and theater ballistic missile warning capabilities. SBIRS Low program was originally expected to consist of about 24 satellites in low earth orbit tracking of ballistic missiles, with discrimination between warheads, decoys and other objects, which morphed into the STSS, Space Tracking and Surveillance System by operating at a lower altitude and by using long and short wave infrared sensors to acquire and track missiles in midcourse and during the boost phase. "Two recent flight tests demonstrated that STSS dramatically improved the precision of threat missile attacks and provided more accurate fire control quality data to the Aegis ships several minutes earlier than less accurate data provided by organic radars in the Aegis or THAAD (Theater High Altitude Area Defense) systems" 2011.

https://insidedefense.com/daily-news/us ... se-network
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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

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Israeli press reporting that Germany interested in the Arrow 3 long range anti-ballistic system for 2 billion plus euros comes with exo-atmospheric ability to intercept of IRBM at a reported flight range of up to 2,400 km (1,500 miles) at altitudes of over 100 km (62 miles) and ~ Mach 8+ with a claimed Pk of around 99 %?, it can also serve as an ASAT, anti-satellite missile. Its hit to kill vehicle system different from used in THAAD & SM-3 using an ordinary rocket motor equipped with a thrust-vectoring nozzle is relatively simple, reliable and inexpensive, with divert capability motor capability to switch directions dramatically and a reduce the need for detection and tracking systems accuracy. Reportedly it will cost $3 million per missile, a much lower cost than the US missiles. (Germany after many years of dithering never bought the MEADS system with its Patriot MSE missiles).

The Israeli search sensors are airborne electro-optical sensors deployed on high flying unmanned aerial vehicles and future enhanced "Green Pine" radars, as well as the AN/TPY-2 radar part of the THAAD system already deployed in Israel operated by U.S. Army.

As understand US funded most of the development since 2008 and would not be surprised if it they put a block on Arrow 3 sale to Germany as they did with sale of David's Sling to Switzerland, what is of UK interest is that in July 2021 that Lockheed replaced Boeing as US partner in build of Arrow 3 with IAI, Lockheed the contractor supplying the MoD with BMD radar and two C2 BMC units so Arrow 3 might be possible option for UK anti-ballistic missile if ever funded.

Think pic taken at Alaska test range
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Re: US FMS for UK BMD Radar

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

TSharpe28 wrote: 19 Mar 2022, 04:13 Mobile to cover NATO territory.
To me the wording suggested putting radar "equipment" on and inside concrete.
TSharpe28 wrote: 24 Mar 2022, 03:49 The T45s don't have the ABM yet I believe.
If we adopt a spotter-shooter model for this, we will (likely)
A. get away with the lowest expenditure for the missiles part (on T45s), and
B. direct some part of the sizable investment to keeping UK know-how upto speed [/quote]
NickC wrote: 28 Mar 2022, 14:56 understand US funded most of the development since 2008 and would not be surprised if it they put a block on Arrow 3 sale to Germany
OK, the Germans buy F-35 to be able to drop American (free-fall) nukes. The US say we can't allow you to protect yourselves with the option of tech that you would yourselves prefer
... somehow does not play v well?
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