UK Mobile Fires Platform

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UK Mobile Fires Platform

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

Post by Lord Jim »

The K9A2 will be a very good weapon system when built but is it the right one of the British Army. Lockheed Martin do ever so slightly over state the advantages of being a tracked platform compared to the wheeled platforms under consideration, and conveniently fail to mention any of the disadvantages of a tracked weapon system. It will be interesting to see what the Army makes of it once it is available for trials. The Army has already looked at many of the wheeled platforms, piggybacking on teh US Army's trials last year, for a replacement of teh M777 in the Stryker Brigades.

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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Lord Jim wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 10:04 The K9A2 will be a very good weapon system when built but is it the right one of the British Army. Lockheed Martin do ever so slightly over state the advantages of being a tracked platform compared to the wheeled platforms under consideration, and conveniently fail to mention any of the disadvantages of a tracked weapon system. It will be interesting to see what the Army makes of it once it is available for trials. The Army has already looked at many of the wheeled platforms, piggybacking on teh US Army's trials last year, for a replacement of teh M777 in the Stryker Brigades.
So will Boxer be the only wheeled vehicle amongst the tracked - Challenger 3, Ajax (whenever it is ever ready), GMLRS - or will they get a HIMARS?

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

Post by wargame_insomniac »

I like what I have heard of the K9A2 and it seems very suitable for use in Scandinavia and Northern Europe.

What do Lockheed Martin site in Ampthill currently produce? I am relieved if we can manufacture it locally, so long as as not a start up manufacturing like Generall Dynamics site that had issues with Ajax AFV.

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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Wasn't the hull of the K9 based on that of AS90? What would be the difference between the K9 and an updated AS90?
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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 17:41 What do Lockheed Martin site in Ampthill currently produce? I am relieved if we can manufacture it locally, so long as as not a start up manufacturing like Generall Dynamics site that had issues with Ajax AFV.
They've only developed and built the Warrior WCSP and the AJAX Turret.

We don't have anything available except "start up manufacturing" in UK Armoured vehicles...

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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TSharpe28 wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 12:14 So will Boxer be the only wheeled vehicle amongst the tracked - Challenger 3, Ajax (whenever it is ever ready), GMLRS - or will they get a HIMARS?
This is also a MAN SV 10x10 155mm shown at DSEI.

As Boxer will cover several roles within any formation, it will be a significant part of any organisation. But likely also supported by Jackal Recce and Panther/Foxhound C4I vehicles.
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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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whitelancer wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 19:45 Wasn't the hull of the K9 based on that of AS90? What would be the difference between the K9 and an updated AS90?
You maybe getting confused with the Polish Krab SPG that has the Turret of the AS-90 and the hull of the K-9. I believe it even has the 52 calibre barrel we could have had is we hadn't messed up the procurement programme and decided the existing 39 calibre barrel would suffice.

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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RunningStrong wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 19:54
TSharpe28 wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 12:14 So will Boxer be the only wheeled vehicle amongst the tracked - Challenger 3, Ajax (whenever it is ever ready), GMLRS - or will they get a HIMARS?
This is also a MAN SV 10x10 155mm shown at DSEI.

As Boxer will cover several roles within any formation, it will be a significant part of any organisation. But likely also supported by Jackal Recce and Panther/Foxhound C4I vehicles.
the Boxer based RCH155 is probably the most expensive of the wheeled options for the Mobile Fires requirement. Others option as the afore mentioned MAN 10x10, MAN/Archer, Caesar 8x8, to name but a few. My vote would go to MAN/Archer together with its Ammunition Supply Vehicle using the same chassis and able to rapidly reload the SPG's magazine. A lorry based option would most likely be the cheapest option as well as having the cheapest training and running costs, then there is Boxer and finally the most expensive to purchase, train on and operate we have tracked platforms like the K-9.

The latter may have the advantage of mobility in extreme terrain like northern Norway, but it will have a more substantial support train. In addition I am not sure the force we could be sending up north will be of the mechanised variety as I mentioned in a post elsewhere. Highly mobile light infantry maybe more useful.

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

Post by TSharpe28 »

Lord Jim wrote: 19 Mar 2022, 06:13
RunningStrong wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 19:54
TSharpe28 wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 12:14 So will Boxer be the only wheeled vehicle amongst the tracked - Challenger 3, Ajax (whenever it is ever ready), GMLRS - or will they get a HIMARS?
This is also a MAN SV 10x10 155mm shown at DSEI.

As Boxer will cover several roles within any formation, it will be a significant part of any organisation. But likely also supported by Jackal Recce and Panther/Foxhound C4I vehicles.
the Boxer based RCH155 is probably the most expensive of the wheeled options for the Mobile Fires requirement. Others option as the afore mentioned MAN 10x10, MAN/Archer, Caesar 8x8, to name but a few. My vote would go to MAN/Archer together with its Ammunition Supply Vehicle using the same chassis and able to rapidly reload the SPG's magazine. A lorry based option would most likely be the cheapest option as well as having the cheapest training and running costs, then there is Boxer and finally the most expensive to purchase, train on and operate we have tracked platforms like the K-9.

The latter may have the advantage of mobility in extreme terrain like northern Norway, but it will have a more substantial support train. In addition I am not sure the force we could be sending up north will be of the mechanised variety as I mentioned in a post elsewhere. Highly mobile light infantry maybe more useful.
Archer may be out given only Croatia operates it. Or it might be chosen cause it's BAE

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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TSharpe28 wrote: 19 Mar 2022, 06:53 Archer may be out given only Croatia operates it. Or it might be chosen cause it's BAE
I guess you meant Sweden as Croatia is using PzH 2000.

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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Does anyone have any further information of these Tactical Group Batteries equipped with Ajax or Jackal? Are these the groupings of the Joint Fires platforms or teams? Whatever they are they seem to be very important for the reorganisation of the Royal Artillery. Also are the M270 Batteries still comprised of four launchers? That number I correct at present whereas the AS-90 Batteries are six platforms each. I think the latter used to be eight strong in the 1980s and 1990s.

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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Lord Jim wrote: 21 Mar 2022, 19:19 That number I correct at present whereas the AS-90 Batteries are six platforms each. I think the latter used to be eight strong in the 1980s and 1990s.
I think that British Army is still having 8 AS-90 per battery for total of 24 per regiment. At least that was the case in 2019.
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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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Ok thanks for that.

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

Post by TSharpe28 »

Lord Jim wrote: 21 Mar 2022, 19:19 Does anyone have any further information of these Tactical Group Batteries equipped with Ajax or Jackal? Are these the groupings of the Joint Fires platforms or teams? Whatever they are they seem to be very important for the reorganisation of the Royal Artillery. Also are the M270 Batteries still comprised of four launchers? That number I correct at present whereas the AS-90 Batteries are six platforms each. I think the latter used to be eight strong in the 1980s and 1990s.
I recommend keep reading the gunner website or magazine each month. If I want to guess, they just complement 5 Regiment Royal Artillery?

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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Lord Jim wrote: 21 Mar 2022, 19:19 Does anyone have any further information of these Tactical Group Batteries equipped with Ajax or Jackal? Are these the groupings of the Joint Fires platforms or teams? Whatever they are they seem to be very important for the reorganisation of the Royal Artillery. Also are the M270 Batteries still comprised of four launchers? That number I correct at present whereas the AS-90 Batteries are six platforms each. I think the latter used to be eight strong in the 1980s and 1990s.
I noted that the number of Ajax and Jackal groups mapped to the number of Ajax and Jackal cavalry regiments in the two "heavy" BCTs and the "deep fires recce" BCT - so assumed they were joint fires variants that got attached to those recce regiments to link back to the fires element.

Presumably if ever actually deployed under current planning, the close support MPF equipped regiments would deploy from the current "deep recce but actually just a DIVARTY" BCT to the heavy BCTs and the tactical groups would then work from those BCT Ajax regiments. Meanwhile the actual deployed deep recce BCT would be two regiments (or really one and a half) of MLRS with Ajax and (bizarrely) Jackal screening in front of the heavy BCTs.

In US divisions, the armored BCTs have only a recce squadron. So I wonder if, the deep recce Ajax/Jackals do the divisional screening/deep fires ISTAR.... meanwhile only the tactical groups + a squadron of the Ajaxes in the heavy BCT do local screening for the MPF regiments... the other two squadrons deploy into the maneuver combined arms teams as direct fire support for the Boxers....

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

Post by sol »

Rentaghost wrote: 22 Mar 2022, 08:53 In US divisions, the armored BCTs have only a recce squadron.
Squadron designation is misleading here and it is actually a battalion by its strength. Currently, recce squadron in US Army Armoured BCT, has three recce troops (read companies) and one tank troop (company) for total of 39 Bradley M3A2 CFV and 14 Abrams MBT, plus 6 120mm mortars. So it is on par or even stronger than British Army recce regiment.

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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sol wrote: 22 Mar 2022, 09:59
Rentaghost wrote: 22 Mar 2022, 08:53 In US divisions, the armored BCTs have only a recce squadron.
Squadron designation is misleading here and it is actually a battalion by its strength. Currently, recce squadron in US Army Armoured BCT, has three recce troops (read companies) and one tank troop (company) for total of 39 Bradley M3A2 CFV and 14 Abrams MBT, plus 6 120mm mortars. So it is on par or even stronger than British Army recce regiment.
Ah ok, fair enough - so scratch the direct fire support comment in my post.

Still, I think the rest of my comment is still relevant in so far as how the artillery will be organised: Future Soldier is designed to map to current US divisional/BCT structure... except without the third brigade. The deep fires recce concept is really just the US DIVARTY.... possibly with a deeper, denser screening force but really not that different.

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

Post by sol »

K9A2 with a fully automated turret


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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

Post by RunningStrong »

Will UK adopt an autoloader?

Seems to be on the cards from all the offerings. Commander and driver crew, maybe a secondary crew off-platform or part of the resupply platform.

Will dramatically reduce the Gunner demand in 155 units. But REME dets will need to grow...

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

Post by Lord Jim »

Depends where we go. If we chose, with regards to a wheeled platform, a platform like Caesar then we will only have assisted loading then the reduction in Gunners will be far less than a turreted system like Archer or the RCH115. In that case the gun would only have between two and four crew total. The change of a 105mm Light Gun Battery to that of a M270 GMLRS Battery will probably have the biggest effect.

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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Yesterday Hanwha Defense hosted a parliamentary reception in the United Kingdom to lobby for its Self-Propelled K9 Thunder howitzer to be selected for the British Army’s Mobile Fires Platform (MFP) programme:

https://www.armadainternational.com/202 ... -platform/
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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

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whitelancer wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 19:45 Wasn't the hull of the K9 based on that of AS90? What would be the difference between the K9 and an updated AS90?
Not the hull but its suspension.
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Re: UK Mobile Fires Platform

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: 19 Mar 2022, 06:03
whitelancer wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 19:45 Wasn't the hull of the K9 based on that of AS90? What would be the difference between the K9 and an updated AS90?
You maybe getting confused with the Polish Krab SPG that has the Turret of the AS-90 and the hull of the K-9. I believe it even has the 52 calibre barrel we could have had is we hadn't messed up the procurement programme and decided the existing 39 calibre barrel would suffice.
Polish Krab was a 20-yr project, in its production form into the third gun option and also the hull was changed to K9's (hence the lineage back to AS90). The turret is more specifically the Braveheart one, ie. the one we never purchased... and may now be having a rethink?

Surprised that there are no news(?) around about ERCA playing (or not) into the on-going deliberations.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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