Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by NickC »

Newish YouTube video on Starstreak, surprisingly high number of views, 600,000+.

A few notes, specs quoted, min to max range, 980 ft to 4.35 miles with max altitude of 16,500 ft, equates to 300m/7 km/5000 m, think realistic. Mentions needs 20 days training as not simple system as a fire and forget missile, the sight/fire control unit includes trigger, joystick control, general switch, wind compensator, a device for fixing the targets flight altitude and with its monocular laser stabilised sight. Target must be kept in crosshairs of sight continuously until missile impact, 1 sec to launch out of container with tube motor, main motor powers up to Mach 4+ within 300 m? and then the three darts coast to target using the imparted kinetic energy, darts can manoeuvre at 9G and never more than 5 ft from laser beam guidance. Mention 8 sec to impact, at 7 km would average out at ~ Mach 2.4

From <

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by Timmymagic »

NickC wrote: 26 Apr 2022, 16:17 Mentions needs 20 days training as not simple system
Worth noting that some of that will include aircraft recognition, ADAD, lots of simulated firings and IFF. ADAD and IFF have not ben supplied to Ukraine, aircraft recognition on the front lines will also be rather easy...if its flying its Russian.

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by RunningStrong »

Timmymagic wrote: 26 Apr 2022, 16:54
NickC wrote: 26 Apr 2022, 16:17 Mentions needs 20 days training as not simple system
Worth noting that some of that will include aircraft recognition, ADAD, lots of simulated firings and IFF. ADAD and IFF have not ben supplied to Ukraine, aircraft recognition on the front lines will also be rather easy...if its flying its Russian.
And the obligatory first day talking about CARC, not licking it and not using it as a pillow.

3 day course then.
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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What's wrong with using it as a pillow. Milan was very comfy when you unboxed it and wrapped a cam net around it. Never tried licking one though🤔
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote: 11 Mar 2022, 19:42 Build a new Mission Module for the Boxer with the turret and sensors from the Stormer HVM platform and problem solved. You end up with a more capable platform that is cheaper to maintain, has room for growth and can carry more rounds . Tag on a 30mm Chain Gun as used by the Apache and you have an even better vehicle.
Agree... BUT aren't we giving Stormers to Ukraine? And the only Stormer-based platform in use is the HVM

If the rumoured new Russian offensive gets 'off the ground' one can bet that there will be more jointness in the Op; hence the AA platforms should be shipped plenty quick to blunt the A2G missions taking place 'at will'.
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Timmymagic wrote: 05 Apr 2022, 11:03 The solution is really a turret on Boxer that utilises these and the trialed 40mm CT airburst round
The French have put their AA turret on the back of a truck... so too big for dropping on top of a Boxer. Or using the open back "logs' version for mounting?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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ArmChairCivvy wrote: 22 May 2022, 14:23
The French have put their AA turret on the back of a truck... so too big for dropping on top of a Boxer. Or using the open back "logs' version for mounting?
I wonder what drives the AA turret to be so much larger than other CT40 turrets

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by Lord Jim »

The CTA40 in its AA configuration is based on the seaborne weapon system and is too big and heavy fo a Boxer of Ajax. WHilst the weapon will still be fitted to Ajax if and when it enters service we need to stop looking at it being the be all and end all of automatic cannons the Army should use. There are plenty of ready made AAA systems out there that would be cheaper to use going forward. Yes we do have some spare CTA40s since Warrior was cancelled but I believe these are already up for sale.

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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ArmChairCivvy wrote: 22 May 2022, 14:23
Timmymagic wrote: 05 Apr 2022, 11:03 The solution is really a turret on Boxer that utilises these and the trialed 40mm CT airburst round
The French have put their AA turret on the back of a truck... so too big for dropping on top of a Boxer. Or using the open back "logs' version for mounting?
Couple of observations.

Trucks are cheap. Much cheaper than a BOXER, so it's not necessarily on a truck because it's too large or heavy for a mission module. It does use a 120 round magazine, which is nearly twice that of AjAX/Warrior but that's probably not the biggest driving factor.

The truck also uses outriggers, or certainly does in the images I've seen. The Boxer artillery system doesn't use outriggers (to the point that it has been demonstrated firing artillery on the move), so this would make the design more compact too.

And yes. I wouldn't want to be sat in a AA turret. Those things tend to be quite rapid in their movement. A driver and commander crew would be sufficient.

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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Lord Jim wrote: 22 May 2022, 21:12 The CTA40 in its AA configuration is based on the seaborne weapon system and is too big and heavy fo a Boxer of Ajax.
That doesn’t make any sense. What is the AA configuration of the CTA40? What is “the seaborne weapon system?”
If you mean: “The mount from Thales, which is the only AA system we’ve seen with a CT40, is a seaborne system and too big and heavy for a Boxer or Ajax” then that would make more sense, but there’s nothing I’ve seen published that would make it true.
WHilst the weapon will still be fitted to Ajax if and when it enters service we need to stop looking at it being the be all and end all of automatic cannons the Army should use. There are plenty of ready made AAA systems out there that would be cheaper to use going forward. Yes we do have some spare CTA40s since Warrior was cancelled but I believe these are already up for sale.
One of the best places for a gun with anti-drone capabilities to be is with the counter recce screen, so I’d like to think that Ajax would have some utility in that role. Bringing another weapon system (with foreign ammunition so we have no surety of supply) seems wanton.

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by Lord Jim »

WEll tha last bit means the Apaches are in deep trouble with their Chain Guns.

Yes the only Anti Air system that uses the CTA40 at present is the one selected for the French Navy and as mentioned by others they have also displayed a truck based version of the same mount for land use, and it is way too big to be installed on any 8x8.

the CTA40 on Ajax has a high degree of elevation, but it would require additional sensors to be able to identify and engage the small UAS used for forward Recce by many Nations including the UK. I suppose we could do like the Swedes did with their CV-90 IFVs, and develop an version that is a SPAAA platform by adding radar and other systems. Maybe that is the best way forward, but we would be reinventing the wheel as highly effective SPAAG turrets that have all the necessary sensors etc, and that would be a plug and play option for Boxer already exist in the form of designs for Mission Modules with said turrets. As for ammunition supply, I doubt BREXIT will prevent us buying what we need or using allies or NATO stocks if needed. They would be far more readily available than out limited stocks of CTA40 ammunition and does anyone trust the French to always back us up if they are the only alternate source?

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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Lord Jim wrote: 23 May 2022, 23:11 WEll tha last bit means the Apaches are in deep trouble with their Chain Guns.
I’d give it a pass as the capability overlap isn’t great, and the AAC is it’s own branch with it’s own logistics. Buying in a weapon that has almost identical capabilities to one we already have, in the same battlegroup, might make sense as a UOR, but seems wasteful as part of core.

Yes the only Anti Air system that uses the CTA40 at present is the one selected for the French Navy and as mentioned by others they have also displayed a truck based version of the same mount for land use, and it is way too big to be installed on any 8x8.
Repeating it doesn’t make it true. Considering that there are no published specs for the thing and that both RCH155 and Draco turrets exist, suggests that there’s quite a bit of scope for what you can fit on an 8x8
the CTA40 on Ajax has a high degree of elevation, but it would require additional sensors to be able to identify and engage the small UAS used for forward Recce by many Nations including the UK. I suppose we could do like the Swedes did with their CV-90 IFVs, and develop an version that is a SPAAA platform by adding radar and other systems. Maybe that is the best way forward, but we would be reinventing the wheel as highly effective SPAAG turrets that have all the necessary sensors etc, and that would be a plug and play option for Boxer already exist in the form of designs for Mission Modules with said turrets.
GVA is supposed to be highly adaptable, so it might well be easier installing extra sensors to a GVA turret than bringing an existing turret to UK standards.
As for ammunition supply, I doubt BREXIT will prevent us buying what we need or using allies or NATO stocks if needed. They would be far more readily available than out limited stocks of CTA40 ammunition and does anyone trust the French to always back us up if they are the only alternate source?
I was under the impression that CT40 ammunition was produced in the UK. Meanwhile Swiss ammunition is being blocked from being sent to Ukraine.

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by Caribbean »

mr.fred wrote: 24 May 2022, 12:11 I was under the impression that CT40 ammunition was produced in the UK.
It is, as well as 20mm KAA, 30mm Rarden and 30mm KCB. BAE Radway Green now produces 12.7mm as well as 5.56 and 7.62
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by Lord Jim »

The vehicle seen was basically the French naval mount, on the back of a 6x6 lorry. The mount being non deck penetrating they just took one and found a lorry that could handle the weight, as a proof of concept I would think. It is also pretty big. Yes using a GVA Turret is an option, as is modifying the existing Ajax Turret as the Swedes did with their CV-90. I wasn't aware that BAe was still producing ammunition at such a scale, thank for teh info.

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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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Lord Jim wrote: 24 May 2022, 13:41 I wasn't aware that BAe was still producing ammunition at such a scale
I confess I was a bit surprised as well. Apparently Radway Green can produce one million rounds per day of 5.56 and 7.62. More if they go to overtime working.

They also produce 81mm mortar, 105mm, 127mm and 155mm

About the only UK "standard" round they don't seem to produce is 9mm parabellum. Maybe there are other UK manufacturers for it
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Caribbean wrote: 24 May 2022, 17:51 About the only UK "standard" round they don't seem to produce is 9mm parabellum.
I seem to remember we have a tank force firing (non- NATO std) 120 mm?

The new 40 mm is in good hands; is Rarden out of poduction?


Lots of US guns 20 mm, ATK for higher caliber...
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by Caribbean »

Apologies,they also manufacture 120mm as well
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The real question is: are all the variaties needed doable (incl. further dvlpmnt)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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Caribbean wrote: 24 May 2022, 17:51 They also produce 81mm mortar, 105mm, 127mm and 155mm
Incredibly though we do not produce propellant for artillery shells in the UK.

Yes...you read that right. BAE shut it down and the Government let them. We are not self sufficient in artillery ammunition. We can produce the shells and exmplosive but we cannot fire them...ROF Bishopton closed in 2002...it was of course then sold for housing...proper ponzi economy...

BAE in conjunction with the MoD have been a disaster for the UK small arms, ammunition and land systems industries...
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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*and civil aircraft
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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And Shipbuilding...and armoured fighting vehicles...and maritime patrol aircraft
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

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ArmChairCivvy wrote: 24 May 2022, 18:14 [quote=Caribbean post_id=140213 time=1653411092 user_id=772
is Rarden out of poduction?
[/quote]

Pretty much:

Answered on

7 September 2021
Ammunition for the L21A1 RARDEN 30mm cannon was last purchased as follows:

Type of 30mm ammunition
Year of last Purchase
Practice
2019
Reduced Range Practice
2014
High Explosive Tracer
2011
Armour Piercing
1991
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

As someone mentioned here, a good pile must have gone to Latvia.. the best source then?

Perhaps more missiles (three shifts not unheard of) is an easier answer.

Some attention should be paid to the Ukrainian view that without heavy equipment (made available) their changes of rolling back Russian advances are either not hat great, or too costly in 'blood'.
- AD systems with substantially more range than Starstreak would presumably also fall into "heavy"
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by Phil Sayers »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: 26 May 2022, 15:35 AD systems with substantially more range than Starstreak would presumably also fall into "heavy"
I have said before on the Ukraine war thread that transferring our Rapier batteries would make perfect sense (and I would hope is under active, albeit classified, consideration or has advanced to the point of training being underway in a remote location). We are replacing them anyway, could just order more Sky Sabre on a quicker timescale so as to compensate and capability wise they would be very useful to Ukraine whether in terms of shootdowns or requiring Russian aviation to fly at much higher altitudes.
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Re: Starstreak Missile (Man-Portable Air-Defence System) (British Army & RN (RM))

Post by Timmymagic »

Phil Sayers wrote: 26 May 2022, 18:11 capability wise they would be very useful to Ukraine whether in terms of shootdowns or requiring Russian aviation to fly at much higher altitudes.
Given they're not spectacularly mobile, and by that I mean in terms of fast into action and out (they are mobile in the sense they're light and small). One of the most useful applications for Rapier would be as a defence system for fixed positions, freeing up other Ukrainian assets to move to the front i.e. airfields, refineries, weapons plants, munitions depots etc. Rapiers range isn't great but it is capable against Russian cruise missiles at least, which appear to be the biggest threat to these faciities (in addition to the occasional Iskander semi-ballistic missile which Rapier is not going to be able to deal with).

I'm really surprised that no-one has yet pulled some i-Hawk out of storage...for the same reason, they could cover the west and centre of the country freeing up systems the Ukrainian's are more familiar with for the east and south.
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