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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 11 Nov 2023, 19:45
by Little J
mrclark303 wrote: 11 Nov 2023, 17:42
The H160 sounds like the helicopter the AAC should have got instead of the Wildcat.

Double the troop lift and I'll bet half the cost of Wildcat.
You've been banging on for ages that we shouldn't get the AW149 or H175m because they're civilian aircraft, but we should have had the H160 (civilian aircraft) instead of the Wildcat?

Not that I'm disagreeing that the Wildcat is to small. I love the Lynx, but Wildcat should have been somewhere in the aw169 / aw139 / H160 sized area (with a folding tail).

I just don't follow your train of thought.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 11 Nov 2023, 23:47
by sol
mrclark303 wrote: 11 Nov 2023, 17:42 The H160 sounds like the helicopter the AAC should have got instead of the Wildcat.
So AAC (and RN) should get helicopter which didn't even existed when Westland started working on Wildcat. Wildcat was contracted, had first flight and was introduced both in the Army and the Navy before H160 even the had first test flight. Not to mention that first H160M is planed to be delivered to the French Army in 2027.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 12 Nov 2023, 03:52
by mrclark303
sol wrote: 11 Nov 2023, 23:47
mrclark303 wrote: 11 Nov 2023, 17:42 The H160 sounds like the helicopter the AAC should have got instead of the Wildcat.
So AAC (and RN) should get helicopter which didn't even existed when Westland started working on Wildcat. Wildcat was contracted, had first flight and was introduced both in the Army and the Navy before H160 even the had first test flight. Not to mention that first H160M is planed to be delivered to the French Army in 2027.
No, just pointing out that the H160, is a better fit for the light utility role than Army Wildcat.

Carries 9, Wildcat 4 ...

Seems like a capable little helicopter for the Armies light utility requirements.

The RN should keep their Wildcats, perhaps transfer 10 of the Army examples to the Navy, refitted with full Navy spec, sell the rest and try to kickstart an export market for the type...

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 12 Nov 2023, 04:09
by mrclark303
Little J wrote: 11 Nov 2023, 19:45
mrclark303 wrote: 11 Nov 2023, 17:42
The H160 sounds like the helicopter the AAC should have got instead of the Wildcat.

Double the troop lift and I'll bet half the cost of Wildcat.
You've been banging on for ages that we shouldn't get the AW149 or H175m because they're civilian aircraft, but we should have had the H160 (civilian aircraft) instead of the Wildcat?

Not that I'm disagreeing that the Wildcat is to small. I love the Lynx, but Wildcat should have been somewhere in the aw169 / aw139 / H160 sized area (with a folding tail).

I just don't follow your train of thought.
It's a different requirement. We aren't talking medium lift, we are talking 'light' utility here, there are no purely military aircraft that fit the bill, except the chocolate tea pot that is the Army utility Wildcat, a helicopter extremely limited in the utility role!

The H160 would be a good light utility fit for the AAC, carrying a Platoon, though perhaps not a fully equipped one, but a useful load non the less.

Alternatively, just save money, go bigger, buy 60 + UH60's and replace the Army Wildcat with that too...

The supposed 'scouting' role of the Army Wildcat is pure PR bullshit anyway, it carries no scouting equipment save a rudimentary forward mounted flir, or weapons fit, save a door mounted Gimpy and would be simply shot out of the sky if used in this role against a sophisticated enemy.

As stated elsewhere, transfer 10 Wildcat to the Navy and sell the rest to try and kickstart Wildcat sales and try to salvage something for the billions of tax payers money sunk into the Wasteland white elephant.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 12 Nov 2023, 15:50
by Little J
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Nov 2023, 04:09 Alternatively, just save money, go bigger, buy 60 + UH60's and replace the Army Wildcat with that too...
*cough* AW149 *cough*... :thumbup: :lol:

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 12 Nov 2023, 19:27
by mrclark303
Little J wrote: 12 Nov 2023, 15:50
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Nov 2023, 04:09 Alternatively, just save money, go bigger, buy 60 + UH60's and replace the Army Wildcat with that too...
*cough* AW149 *cough*... :thumbup: :lol:
😂😂🤣

Well, one thing in its corner now, Poland have started receiving aircraft, so I assume they paid to complete it's development to a full NATO compatible standard?

That's one tick in the box

Questions needing to be answered, can it take typical non critical LZ bullet hole damage, be immediately patched up and back into service, or not?

Is it capable of maritime deployment and use in reasonably high sea states?

Our helicopter assets are spread so thin, the new Medium helicopter must be capable of being Carrier embarked when the situation calls for it. It must be a flexible asset.

What's its comparative cost against the UH-60 benchmark?

Non of this, UK economic benefits nonsense either, as that money doesn't come back to the defence budget, it just takes a bigger bite out of it than necessary.

Someone convince me that it's not just another Wastelands white elephant like the Wildcat.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 13:44
by sol
Seems like there is official confirmation of ordering 6 H145 for Cyprus and Brunei, officially designated Jupiter HC2. Price of contract should be 140 million.


Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 14:56
by mrclark303
sol wrote: 13 Nov 2023, 13:44 Seems like there is official confirmation of ordering 6 H145 for Cyprus and Brunei, officially designated Jupiter HC2. Price of contract should be 140 million.

Well, there we go, pretty much guaranteeing that the medium helicopter order will be a paltry 25 airframes...

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 15:29
by Little J
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Nov 2023, 19:27 Questions needing to be answered, can it take typical non critical LZ bullet hole damage, be immediately patched up and back into service, or not?

Is it capable of maritime deployment and use in reasonably high sea states?
Those 2 questions would be very relevant if the timeline was different and we were onboard with the French on H160m. They are just as likely to get shot at as the "medium lift" (that you referred to earlier). It has a narrow wheel track, I would be nervous of putting that thing down on anything other than a Carrier/LPH, so SF working off a frigate could be interesting...

With regards to the Jupiter HC.2 and NMH, it looks like we aren't going to be getting all our ducks in a row, yet again. :roll:
And tbh, I think your estimate of 25 airframes may be to high now. I would have a guess at about 20 (less than the Puma fleet), putting up the price of anything assembled/built from kits in the UK. Making a FMS from the US for Blackhawks more likely.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 16:09
by SKB

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 16:41
by new guy
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Nov 2023, 14:56
sol wrote: 13 Nov 2023, 13:44 Seems like there is official confirmation of ordering 6 H145 for Cyprus and Brunei, officially designated Jupiter HC2. Price of contract should be 140 million.

Well, there we go, pretty much guaranteeing that the medium helicopter order will be a paltry 25 airframes...


Money was take as net neutral.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 17:44
by mrclark303
Little J wrote: 13 Nov 2023, 15:29
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Nov 2023, 19:27 Questions needing to be answered, can it take typical non critical LZ bullet hole damage, be immediately patched up and back into service, or not?

Is it capable of maritime deployment and use in reasonably high sea states?
Those 2 questions would be very relevant if the timeline was different and we were onboard with the French on H160m. They are just as likely to get shot at as the "medium lift" (that you referred to earlier). It has a narrow wheel track, I would be nervous of putting that thing down on anything other than a Carrier/LPH, so SF working off a frigate could be interesting...

With regards to the Jupiter HC.2 and NMH, it looks like we aren't going to be getting all our ducks in a row, yet again. :roll:
And tbh, I think your estimate of 25 airframes may be to high now. I would have a guess at about 20 (less than the Puma fleet), putting up the price of anything assembled/built from kits in the UK. Making a FMS from the US for Blackhawks more likely.
Less than 20, just don't bother quite frankly. The fleet is so small you may as well lease something suitable and affordable to fill the gap until someone wakes up and takes it bloody seriously.

Setting up UK assembly for a pitiful handful of airframes would be a preposterous waste of money, even by our dizzying procurement standards!

The unit and support costs would be absolutely through the roof expensive on such small numbers.

If we really are turning out Medium Helicopter capability into such a small neche affair, then just lease what's out there and be dammed.

Everyone else in Europe is waking up and taking defence seriously, our politicians just don't seem to give a toss to me.

It seems beyond bloody obvious we need a fleet of 50 plus capable Medium Helicopters to supplement the Chinook fleet and to use for missions Chinook isn't appropriate for...

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 22:21
by Little J
Airbus promo video...


Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 08:22
by sol
Even with H145 covering replacements of Bell 212 & 412 in Brunei and Cyrus, UK will still need some 20-30 helicopters to replace Puma and AS365 (?). It would still need to equip 2 RAF squadrons currently operating Puma, 1 OCU RAF squadron, provide at least one helicopter for 22 Squadron RAF (OEU) and 1 AAC squadron. And those are just current units that operate types that needs to be replaced, not sure if there is some other units that would be converted to operate new helicopter.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 09:12
by mrclark303
sol wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 08:22 Even with H145 covering replacements of Bell 212 & 412 in Brunei and Cyrus, UK will still need some 20-30 helicopters to replace Puma and AS365 (?). It would still need to equip 2 RAF squadrons currently operating Puma, 1 OCU RAF squadron, provide at least one helicopter for 22 Squadron RAF (OEU) and 1 AAC squadron. And those are just current units that operate types that needs to be replaced, not sure if there is some other units that would be converted to operate new helicopter.
I think the whole thing will simply be stalled, kettle left boiling on the cooker and everything dumped on the next, probably Labour government.

As we fall back from the originally envisioned 40 odd machines, probably down to half that number, circa 20 odd, local assembly now makes no economic sense.

A simple straight purchase of a suitable and affordable type is needed now.

I can see the whole Medium helicopter programme eventually boiling down so there's only steam left in the kettle with no decision being made and Puma requiring withdrawal.

The result probably being an additional small order for H145 ( another 10) and an additional 12 Chinook.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 11:20
by Little J
If V-280 is the long term goal, shouldn't we be hearing about tie ups with UK companies by now?


More Chinooks? Do we really need any more?

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 11:28
by RunningStrong
Little J wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 11:20 If V-280 is the long term goal, shouldn't we be hearing about tie ups with UK companies by now?


More Chinooks? Do we really need any more?
To make V-280 more expensive!?

I would have thought if UK was looking for a tilt rotor, and an expensive one, we'd be looking at AW609.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 11:38
by SW1
Little J wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 11:20 If V-280 is the long term goal, shouldn't we be hearing about tie ups with UK companies by now?


More Chinooks? Do we really need any more?
V-280 is being manufactured by companies that have uk subsidiaries with all the manufacturing capabilities required to dual source production if that was the desired route

Gkn do the tail, spirit AeroSystems the composite fuselage and for production likely Rolls Royce engines.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 12:08
by mrclark303
SW1 wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 11:38
Little J wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 11:20 If V-280 is the long term goal, shouldn't we be hearing about tie ups with UK companies by now?


More Chinooks? Do we really need any more?
V-280 is being manufactured by companies that have uk subsidiaries with all the manufacturing capabilities required to dual source production if that was the desired route

Gkn do the tail, spirit AeroSystems the composite fuselage and for production likely Rolls Royce engines.
The problem is V280 and all its fancy tech is still years from service with the US, never mind for export countries.

It's certainly something to look at in the 2035 timeframe, that's for sure.

Re Chinook, no, I don't think we need to further enlarge the fleet, but it's a simple political solution to a perceived problem.

Like l said, 12 more Chinook and and another handful of H145, problem solved as far as your typical politician is concerned,

"You want helicopter 'lift', job done"

While not taking in the actual military requirements and uses for a capable medium lift platform.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 12:30
by SW1
mrclark303 wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 12:08
SW1 wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 11:38
Little J wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 11:20 If V-280 is the long term goal, shouldn't we be hearing about tie ups with UK companies by now?


More Chinooks? Do we really need any more?
V-280 is being manufactured by companies that have uk subsidiaries with all the manufacturing capabilities required to dual source production if that was the desired route

Gkn do the tail, spirit AeroSystems the composite fuselage and for production likely Rolls Royce engines.
The problem is V280 and all its fancy tech is still years from service with the US, never mind for export countries.

It's certainly something to look at in the 2035 timeframe, that's for sure.

Re Chinook, no, I don't think we need to further enlarge the fleet, but it's a simple political solution to a perceived problem.

Like l said, 12 more Chinook and and another handful of H145, problem solved as far as your typical politician is concerned,

"You want helicopter 'lift', job done"

While not taking in the actual military requirements and uses for a capable medium lift platform.

There’s nothing to say they won’t just bring Puma back anll to the uk and extend it further. I personally think changing to tilt rotor has many many implications.

It depends where the urban requirement is going. I would think a medium helicopter is a better more realistic option for the uk. As a whole I would have just 3 helicopter types in the UK.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 14:41
by mrclark303
SW1 wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 12:30
mrclark303 wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 12:08
SW1 wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 11:38
Little J wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 11:20 If V-280 is the long term goal, shouldn't we be hearing about tie ups with UK companies by now?


More Chinooks? Do we really need any more?
V-280 is being manufactured by companies that have uk subsidiaries with all the manufacturing capabilities required to dual source production if that was the desired route

Gkn do the tail, spirit AeroSystems the composite fuselage and for production likely Rolls Royce engines.
The problem is V280 and all its fancy tech is still years from service with the US, never mind for export countries.

It's certainly something to look at in the 2035 timeframe, that's for sure.

Re Chinook, no, I don't think we need to further enlarge the fleet, but it's a simple political solution to a perceived problem.

Like l said, 12 more Chinook and and another handful of H145, problem solved as far as your typical politician is concerned,

"You want helicopter 'lift', job done"

While not taking in the actual military requirements and uses for a capable medium lift platform.

There’s nothing to say they won’t just bring Puma back anll to the uk and extend it further. I personally think changing to tilt rotor has many many implications.

It depends where the urban requirement is going. I would think a medium helicopter is a better more realistic option for the uk. As a whole I would have just 3 helicopter types in the UK.
Refurbish Puma again, possibly, never say never, but unlikely.

I don't think it would be politically acceptable.

Like I said, I suspect the problem will be dumped in Labours lap, were it will be deferred once again, subject to the outcome of their SDSR.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 14:54
by Little J
mrclark303 wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 12:08 The problem is V280 and all its fancy tech is still years from service with the US, never mind for export countries.

It's certainly something to look at in the 2035 timeframe, that's for sure.
My apologies, that is what i meant when i said long term, I should have been clearer.

I could see us getting x amount of 280's in the future and keeping on some of the NMH for the roles that tilt-rotor's are not suited.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 18:29
by Meriv9
RunningStrong wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 11:28
Little J wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 11:20 If V-280 is the long term goal, shouldn't we be hearing about tie ups with UK companies by now?


More Chinooks? Do we really need any more?
To make V-280 more expensive!?

I would have thought if UK was looking for a tilt rotor, and an expensive one, we'd be looking at AW609.
The AW609 is older generation tilt rotor and way smaller, too small that is hindering its commercial use.

Image

As you can see there isnt space thus the only possible uses for the AW609 is SAR or MEDVAC where its speed make it more competitive than an helo.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 29 Nov 2023, 17:39
by Little J
Interesting post from Gabriel, is this a sign that the AW149 has won NMH (as we all expected it probably would) or if something else wins, is it a sign that the MoD is going to add yet another type to the inventory instead of using some joined-up thinking (and we all probably expect this too :lol: )? I did also find it interesting that he says its basically between the AW149 and the UH-60... I wonder what is putting Airbus in third place for him?


Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 29 Nov 2023, 19:53
by mrclark303
Little J wrote: 29 Nov 2023, 17:39 Interesting post from Gabriel, is this a sign that the AW149 has won NMH (as we all expected it probably would) or if something else wins, is it a sign that the MoD is going to add yet another type to the inventory instead of using some joined-up thinking (and we all probably expect this too :lol: )? I did also find it interesting that he says its basically between the AW149 and the UH-60... I wonder what is putting Airbus in third place for him?

If we keep watering down the requirments for medium helicopters by nibbling away at the core number, we may as well just lease a minimum number of Puma replacements off the shelf and be done with it....