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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Mar 2023, 13:19
by Ron5
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
That attitude so last century (see Ajax). Current fashion is nurturing UK industry for the good of all. And hopefully, giving contracts to folks with a track record of producing the same kind of stuff (see WSCP).

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Mar 2023, 16:22
by mrclark303
Ron5 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 13:19
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
That attitude so last century (see Ajax). Current fashion is nurturing UK industry for the good of all. And hopefully, giving contracts to folks with a track record of producing the same kind of stuff (see WSCP).
Another word for nurturing UK ( I think you mean Italian in this instance Ron) defence industry, is shoveling money into a hole in the ground, while the front line struggle on with old equipment, while it's bespoke replaced is years late and massively over budget...

Like I said, tail wagging the dog....

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Mar 2023, 16:26
by mrclark303
sol wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 11:15
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 09:28 The current cost of a bog standard UH-60M, as delivered to the US Army is about $6 million a copy.
I am not sure where do you get this number. For example Croatia is getting 4 UH-60M. Two were donated by US but other two are paid $55 million.
Croatia is set to receive four UH-60M helicopters, with two acquired by the country for HRK360 million (USD55 million) and two donated by the US government.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... lack-hawks

In 2020, US approved a sale of single UH-60M to Jordan for price of $23 million

https://helihub.com/2020/07/10/us-appro ... to-jordan/

So I doubt that it cost is just $6 million a copy. And even if it cost US that much it would cost UK much more, and looking into Croatian order, probably well over $20 million per unit.
Just looking up prices ... Whatever the unit price would be too the UK ( funny how our AH64E was so cheap), it would be an order of magnitude cheaper than AW149, that's guaranteed...

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Mar 2023, 17:19
by SW1
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 16:22
Ron5 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 13:19
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
That attitude so last century (see Ajax). Current fashion is nurturing UK industry for the good of all. And hopefully, giving contracts to folks with a track record of producing the same kind of stuff (see WSCP).
Another word for nurturing UK ( I think you mean Italian in this instance Ron) defence industry, is shoveling money into a hole in the ground, while the front line struggle on with old equipment, while it's bespoke replaced is years late and massively over budget...

Like I said, tail wagging the dog....
Who in heck do you think sets those bespoke requirements, or that starts too many programs it can’t afford which means they need to delay and that’s before we look at there infatuation with changing those new-one requirements at the drop of hat.

To then only complain it’s all so bad, to then cancel and go off and buy there “fancy” American kit with a nice jolly thrown in that had none of those bespoke requirements that caused all the problems in the first place.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Mar 2023, 19:18
by mrclark303
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 17:19
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 16:22
Ron5 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 13:19
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
That attitude so last century (see Ajax). Current fashion is nurturing UK industry for the good of all. And hopefully, giving contracts to folks with a track record of producing the same kind of stuff (see WSCP).
Another word for nurturing UK ( I think you mean Italian in this instance Ron) defence industry, is shoveling money into a hole in the ground, while the front line struggle on with old equipment, while it's bespoke replaced is years late and massively over budget...

Like I said, tail wagging the dog....
Who in heck do you think sets those bespoke requirements, or that starts too many programs it can’t afford which means they need to delay and that’s before we look at there infatuation with changing those new-one requirements at the drop of hat.

To then only complain it’s all so bad, to then cancel and go off and buy there “fancy” American kit with a nice jolly thrown in that had none of those bespoke requirements that caused all the problems in the first place.
Totally agree??

The government set ridiculous requirements, generally with a political focus first and the military requirements a firm second.

Fancy American kit, interesting analogy to use with Blackhawk, it's the Transit Builders van of medium Helicopters, proven, reliable and available....

We bought our AH64E's at an absolutely knock down price, so considering we would be buying a similar number of cheaper helicopters off the shelf, why would they suddenly be expensive?? Not following the logic here....

Obviously if you are buying a handful of anything they are more expensive, if we bought 40 'plus' UH60M's , they would be a great unit price I am sure....

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Mar 2023, 20:05
by SW1
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 19:18
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 17:19
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 16:22
Ron5 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 13:19
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
That attitude so last century (see Ajax). Current fashion is nurturing UK industry for the good of all. And hopefully, giving contracts to folks with a track record of producing the same kind of stuff (see WSCP).
Another word for nurturing UK ( I think you mean Italian in this instance Ron) defence industry, is shoveling money into a hole in the ground, while the front line struggle on with old equipment, while it's bespoke replaced is years late and massively over budget...

Like I said, tail wagging the dog....
Who in heck do you think sets those bespoke requirements, or that starts too many programs it can’t afford which means they need to delay and that’s before we look at there infatuation with changing those new-one requirements at the drop of hat.

To then only complain it’s all so bad, to then cancel and go off and buy there “fancy” American kit with a nice jolly thrown in that had none of those bespoke requirements that caused all the problems in the first place.
Totally agree??

The government set ridiculous requirements, generally with a political focus first and the military requirements a firm second.

Fancy American kit, interesting analogy to use with Blackhawk, it's the Transit Builders van of medium Helicopters, proven, reliable and available....

We bought our AH64E's at an absolutely knock down price, so considering we would be buying a similar number of cheaper helicopters off the shelf, why would they suddenly be expensive?? Not following the logic here....

Obviously if you are buying a handful of anything they are more expensive, if we bought 40 'plus' UH60M's , they would be a great unit price I am sure....
Not the government the military set the requirements.

We refurbished existing equipment with Apache. It’s wasn’t some great big special deal. It’s open to considerable question if it was something we should have bought at all.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 13 Mar 2023, 20:20
by Little J
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 16:22 ... while it's bespoke replaced is years late and massively over budget...

Like I said, tail wagging the dog....
Are you still talking about NMH? Coz they've only just announced a small delay (admittedly it will probably increase), also how is it "massively over budget" when the winner hasn't been announced yet???


.......
It makes me laugh, people moan about the UK not making anything any more, but if Leo gets mentioned the knives come out...

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 00:08
by mrclark303
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 20:05
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 19:18
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 17:19
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 16:22
Ron5 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 13:19
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
That attitude so last century (see Ajax). Current fashion is nurturing UK industry for the good of all. And hopefully, giving contracts to folks with a track record of producing the same kind of stuff (see WSCP).
Another word for nurturing UK ( I think you mean Italian in this instance Ron) defence industry, is shoveling money into a hole in the ground, while the front line struggle on with old equipment, while it's bespoke replaced is years late and massively over budget...

Like I said, tail wagging the dog....
Who in heck do you think sets those bespoke requirements, or that starts too many programs it can’t afford which means they need to delay and that’s before we look at there infatuation with changing those new-one requirements at the drop of hat.

To then only complain it’s all so bad, to then cancel and go off and buy there “fancy” American kit with a nice jolly thrown in that had none of those bespoke requirements that caused all the problems in the first place.
Totally agree??

The government set ridiculous requirements, generally with a political focus first and the military requirements a firm second.

Fancy American kit, interesting analogy to use with Blackhawk, it's the Transit Builders van of medium Helicopters, proven, reliable and available....

We bought our AH64E's at an absolutely knock down price, so considering we would be buying a similar number of cheaper helicopters off the shelf, why would they suddenly be expensive?? Not following the logic here....

Obviously if you are buying a handful of anything they are more expensive, if we bought 40 'plus' UH60M's , they would be a great unit price I am sure....
Not the government the military set the requirements.

We refurbished existing equipment with Apache. It’s wasn’t some great big special deal. It’s open to considerable question if it was something we should have bought at all.
The Military set thee requirements, then the politicians get involved... It's been this way for many decades.

Let's roll it back to a simple requirement..

Replace the Puma with a new Medium Helicopter, perhaps a place holder for a fancy new tilt rotor in the 2030's.

Do we A, spend a fortune reinventing the wheel, or B, buy proven off the shelf?

To me the answer is obvious, it's B, to the Government it's obvious, it's A.

Why, that's a slightly more nuanced question...
Perhaps to appease the Italians as we enter the vital Tempest programme together...

I've long come to the conclusion that the Government will ( for some reason) just keep the Yeovil factory open no matter what, at any cost.

The last 'British' throw of the dice was Wildcat, a total sales flop and a helicopter that should never have been built. A Rolls Royce helicopter with few sales opportunities due to its eye watering price tag....

Let's not kid ourselves, we don't design or build Helicopters anymore, we assemble Italian Helicopters from supplied parts in an Italian factory... The rest is simply spin...

It's not a 'vital UK capability' that horse has long bolted!

I don't remember the cries of anguish when Honda announced they were closing the plant in Swindon?

By all means let there be a fair competition ( that Leonardo will win) based on capability and a fixed price with severe penalties for missed targets

We aren't talking 6 gen air dominance here, we are talking relatively simple transport helicopters, the Army and RAF want Blackhawk, (have done for years), they just want a known, proven platform to operate alongside Chinook, that can be delivered on time and on budget....

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 13:25
by Ron5
mrclark303 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 00:08
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 20:05
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 19:18
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 17:19
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 16:22
Ron5 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 13:19
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
That attitude so last century (see Ajax). Current fashion is nurturing UK industry for the good of all. And hopefully, giving contracts to folks with a track record of producing the same kind of stuff (see WSCP).
Another word for nurturing UK ( I think you mean Italian in this instance Ron) defence industry, is shoveling money into a hole in the ground, while the front line struggle on with old equipment, while it's bespoke replaced is years late and massively over budget...

Like I said, tail wagging the dog....
Who in heck do you think sets those bespoke requirements, or that starts too many programs it can’t afford which means they need to delay and that’s before we look at there infatuation with changing those new-one requirements at the drop of hat.

To then only complain it’s all so bad, to then cancel and go off and buy there “fancy” American kit with a nice jolly thrown in that had none of those bespoke requirements that caused all the problems in the first place.
Totally agree??

The government set ridiculous requirements, generally with a political focus first and the military requirements a firm second.

Fancy American kit, interesting analogy to use with Blackhawk, it's the Transit Builders van of medium Helicopters, proven, reliable and available....

We bought our AH64E's at an absolutely knock down price, so considering we would be buying a similar number of cheaper helicopters off the shelf, why would they suddenly be expensive?? Not following the logic here....

Obviously if you are buying a handful of anything they are more expensive, if we bought 40 'plus' UH60M's , they would be a great unit price I am sure....
Not the government the military set the requirements.

We refurbished existing equipment with Apache. It’s wasn’t some great big special deal. It’s open to considerable question if it was something we should have bought at all.
The Military set thee requirements, then the politicians get involved... It's been this way for many decades.

Let's roll it back to a simple requirement..

Replace the Puma with a new Medium Helicopter, perhaps a place holder for a fancy new tilt rotor in the 2030's.

Do we A, spend a fortune reinventing the wheel, or B, buy proven off the shelf?

To me the answer is obvious, it's B, to the Government it's obvious, it's A.

Why, that's a slightly more nuanced question...
Perhaps to appease the Italians as we enter the vital Tempest programme together...

I've long come to the conclusion that the Government will ( for some reason) just keep the Yeovil factory open no matter what, at any cost.

The last 'British' throw of the dice was Wildcat, a total sales flop and a helicopter that should never have been built. A Rolls Royce helicopter with few sales opportunities due to its eye watering price tag....

Let's not kid ourselves, we don't design or build Helicopters anymore, we assemble Italian Helicopters from supplied parts in an Italian factory... The rest is simply spin...

It's not a 'vital UK capability' that horse has long bolted!

I don't remember the cries of anguish when Honda announced they were closing the plant in Swindon?

By all means let there be a fair competition ( that Leonardo will win) based on capability and a fixed price with severe penalties for missed targets

We aren't talking 6 gen air dominance here, we are talking relatively simple transport helicopters, the Army and RAF want Blackhawk, (have done for years), they just want a known, proven platform to operate alongside Chinook, that can be delivered on time and on budget....
Always cheaper to lay off thousands of UK workers to send money overseas (eyes roll).

Your argument reminds me of the Treasury, knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 14:04
by mrclark303
Ron5 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 13:25
mrclark303 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 00:08
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 20:05
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 19:18
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 17:19
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 16:22
Ron5 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 13:19
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
That attitude so last century (see Ajax). Current fashion is nurturing UK industry for the good of all. And hopefully, giving contracts to folks with a track record of producing the same kind of stuff (see WSCP).
Another word for nurturing UK ( I think you mean Italian in this instance Ron) defence industry, is shoveling money into a hole in the ground, while the front line struggle on with old equipment, while it's bespoke replaced is years late and massively over budget...

Like I said, tail wagging the dog....
Who in heck do you think sets those bespoke requirements, or that starts too many programs it can’t afford which means they need to delay and that’s before we look at there infatuation with changing those new-one requirements at the drop of hat.

To then only complain it’s all so bad, to then cancel and go off and buy there “fancy” American kit with a nice jolly thrown in that had none of those bespoke requirements that caused all the problems in the first place.
Totally agree??

The government set ridiculous requirements, generally with a political focus first and the military requirements a firm second.

Fancy American kit, interesting analogy to use with Blackhawk, it's the Transit Builders van of medium Helicopters, proven, reliable and available....

We bought our AH64E's at an absolutely knock down price, so considering we would be buying a similar number of cheaper helicopters off the shelf, why would they suddenly be expensive?? Not following the logic here....

Obviously if you are buying a handful of anything they are more expensive, if we bought 40 'plus' UH60M's , they would be a great unit price I am sure....
Not the government the military set the requirements.

We refurbished existing equipment with Apache. It’s wasn’t some great big special deal. It’s open to considerable question if it was something we should have bought at all.
The Military set thee requirements, then the politicians get involved... It's been this way for many decades.

Let's roll it back to a simple requirement..

Replace the Puma with a new Medium Helicopter, perhaps a place holder for a fancy new tilt rotor in the 2030's.

Do we A, spend a fortune reinventing the wheel, or B, buy proven off the shelf?

To me the answer is obvious, it's B, to the Government it's obvious, it's A.

Why, that's a slightly more nuanced question...
Perhaps to appease the Italians as we enter the vital Tempest programme together...

I've long come to the conclusion that the Government will ( for some reason) just keep the Yeovil factory open no matter what, at any cost.

The last 'British' throw of the dice was Wildcat, a total sales flop and a helicopter that should never have been built. A Rolls Royce helicopter with few sales opportunities due to its eye watering price tag....

Let's not kid ourselves, we don't design or build Helicopters anymore, we assemble Italian Helicopters from supplied parts in an Italian factory... The rest is simply spin...

It's not a 'vital UK capability' that horse has long bolted!

I don't remember the cries of anguish when Honda announced they were closing the plant in Swindon?

By all means let there be a fair competition ( that Leonardo will win) based on capability and a fixed price with severe penalties for missed targets

We aren't talking 6 gen air dominance here, we are talking relatively simple transport helicopters, the Army and RAF want Blackhawk, (have done for years), they just want a known, proven platform to operate alongside Chinook, that can be delivered on time and on budget....
Always cheaper to lay off thousands of UK workers to send money overseas (eyes roll).

Your argument reminds me of the Treasury, knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Eyes roll at the usual rolled out argument Ron, hmmm, as said not a problem with Honda closing its Swindon plant laying off thousands, is there a difference???

Back when we ordered the AH64D, it was considered vital to keep the factory going and to tinker with the design at enormous expense to the tax payer...

One of the arguments was your tired old trot out line Ron "but what of the workers" ....

Interestingly, it would actually have been cheaper to buy Apache off the shelf and a give every single worker a million pounds redundancy!

To be fair, back then, Westlands was still in the design and manufacturing of helicopters business, so a strategic asset...

Today it's totally foreign owned, with no organic design capability, it's basically a Leonardo assembly plant...

Anymore 'tag' lines to share Ron....🥱

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 17:13
by bobp
I know that the Seahawk helicopter comes with folding rotor blades and has maritime protection, would it make sense to buy some of these rather than the Blackhawk, Could then be used off maritime assets as well as land.

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 18:53
by wargame_insomniac
mrclark303 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 14:04
Ron5 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 13:25
mrclark303 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 00:08
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 20:05
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 19:18
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 17:19
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 16:22
Ron5 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 13:19
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
That attitude so last century (see Ajax). Current fashion is nurturing UK industry for the good of all. And hopefully, giving contracts to folks with a track record of producing the same kind of stuff (see WSCP).
Another word for nurturing UK ( I think you mean Italian in this instance Ron) defence industry, is shoveling money into a hole in the ground, while the front line struggle on with old equipment, while it's bespoke replaced is years late and massively over budget...

Like I said, tail wagging the dog....
Who in heck do you think sets those bespoke requirements, or that starts too many programs it can’t afford which means they need to delay and that’s before we look at there infatuation with changing those new-one requirements at the drop of hat.

To then only complain it’s all so bad, to then cancel and go off and buy there “fancy” American kit with a nice jolly thrown in that had none of those bespoke requirements that caused all the problems in the first place.
Totally agree??

The government set ridiculous requirements, generally with a political focus first and the military requirements a firm second.

Fancy American kit, interesting analogy to use with Blackhawk, it's the Transit Builders van of medium Helicopters, proven, reliable and available....

We bought our AH64E's at an absolutely knock down price, so considering we would be buying a similar number of cheaper helicopters off the shelf, why would they suddenly be expensive?? Not following the logic here....

Obviously if you are buying a handful of anything they are more expensive, if we bought 40 'plus' UH60M's , they would be a great unit price I am sure....
Not the government the military set the requirements.

We refurbished existing equipment with Apache. It’s wasn’t some great big special deal. It’s open to considerable question if it was something we should have bought at all.
The Military set thee requirements, then the politicians get involved... It's been this way for many decades.

Let's roll it back to a simple requirement..

Replace the Puma with a new Medium Helicopter, perhaps a place holder for a fancy new tilt rotor in the 2030's.

Do we A, spend a fortune reinventing the wheel, or B, buy proven off the shelf?

To me the answer is obvious, it's B, to the Government it's obvious, it's A.

Why, that's a slightly more nuanced question...
Perhaps to appease the Italians as we enter the vital Tempest programme together...

I've long come to the conclusion that the Government will ( for some reason) just keep the Yeovil factory open no matter what, at any cost.

The last 'British' throw of the dice was Wildcat, a total sales flop and a helicopter that should never have been built. A Rolls Royce helicopter with few sales opportunities due to its eye watering price tag....

Let's not kid ourselves, we don't design or build Helicopters anymore, we assemble Italian Helicopters from supplied parts in an Italian factory... The rest is simply spin...

It's not a 'vital UK capability' that horse has long bolted!

I don't remember the cries of anguish when Honda announced they were closing the plant in Swindon?

By all means let there be a fair competition ( that Leonardo will win) based on capability and a fixed price with severe penalties for missed targets

We aren't talking 6 gen air dominance here, we are talking relatively simple transport helicopters, the Army and RAF want Blackhawk, (have done for years), they just want a known, proven platform to operate alongside Chinook, that can be delivered on time and on budget....
Always cheaper to lay off thousands of UK workers to send money overseas (eyes roll).

Your argument reminds me of the Treasury, knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Eyes roll at the usual rolled out argument Ron, hmmm, as said not a problem with Honda closing its Swindon plant laying off thousands, is there a difference???
Is Honda considered a UK Defence contractor??

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 14 Mar 2023, 22:46
by mrclark303
wargame_insomniac wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 18:53
mrclark303 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 14:04
Ron5 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 13:25
mrclark303 wrote: 14 Mar 2023, 00:08
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 20:05
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 19:18
SW1 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 17:19
mrclark303 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 16:22
Ron5 wrote: 13 Mar 2023, 13:19
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 14:13
Ron5 wrote: 12 Mar 2023, 13:29 Three thousand folks from Somerset on line 2.
Tell them to use the prefex 0039 Ron and speak to their employers.

Are we looking for a proper medium helicopter solution, or running an employment agency?

Don't worry, Leonardo will win, of that I have absolutely no doubt as the tail once again wags the dog...
That attitude so last century (see Ajax). Current fashion is nurturing UK industry for the good of all. And hopefully, giving contracts to folks with a track record of producing the same kind of stuff (see WSCP).
Another word for nurturing UK ( I think you mean Italian in this instance Ron) defence industry, is shoveling money into a hole in the ground, while the front line struggle on with old equipment, while it's bespoke replaced is years late and massively over budget...

Like I said, tail wagging the dog....
Who in heck do you think sets those bespoke requirements, or that starts too many programs it can’t afford which means they need to delay and that’s before we look at there infatuation with changing those new-one requirements at the drop of hat.

To then only complain it’s all so bad, to then cancel and go off and buy there “fancy” American kit with a nice jolly thrown in that had none of those bespoke requirements that caused all the problems in the first place.
Totally agree??

The government set ridiculous requirements, generally with a political focus first and the military requirements a firm second.

Fancy American kit, interesting analogy to use with Blackhawk, it's the Transit Builders van of medium Helicopters, proven, reliable and available....

We bought our AH64E's at an absolutely knock down price, so considering we would be buying a similar number of cheaper helicopters off the shelf, why would they suddenly be expensive?? Not following the logic here....

Obviously if you are buying a handful of anything they are more expensive, if we bought 40 'plus' UH60M's , they would be a great unit price I am sure....
Not the government the military set the requirements.

We refurbished existing equipment with Apache. It’s wasn’t some great big special deal. It’s open to considerable question if it was something we should have bought at all.
The Military set thee requirements, then the politicians get involved... It's been this way for many decades.

Let's roll it back to a simple requirement..

Replace the Puma with a new Medium Helicopter, perhaps a place holder for a fancy new tilt rotor in the 2030's.

Do we A, spend a fortune reinventing the wheel, or B, buy proven off the shelf?

To me the answer is obvious, it's B, to the Government it's obvious, it's A.

Why, that's a slightly more nuanced question...
Perhaps to appease the Italians as we enter the vital Tempest programme together...

I've long come to the conclusion that the Government will ( for some reason) just keep the Yeovil factory open no matter what, at any cost.

The last 'British' throw of the dice was Wildcat, a total sales flop and a helicopter that should never have been built. A Rolls Royce helicopter with few sales opportunities due to its eye watering price tag....

Let's not kid ourselves, we don't design or build Helicopters anymore, we assemble Italian Helicopters from supplied parts in an Italian factory... The rest is simply spin...

It's not a 'vital UK capability' that horse has long bolted!

I don't remember the cries of anguish when Honda announced they were closing the plant in Swindon?

By all means let there be a fair competition ( that Leonardo will win) based on capability and a fixed price with severe penalties for missed targets

We aren't talking 6 gen air dominance here, we are talking relatively simple transport helicopters, the Army and RAF want Blackhawk, (have done for years), they just want a known, proven platform to operate alongside Chinook, that can be delivered on time and on budget....
Always cheaper to lay off thousands of UK workers to send money overseas (eyes roll).

Your argument reminds me of the Treasury, knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Eyes roll at the usual rolled out argument Ron, hmmm, as said not a problem with Honda closing its Swindon plant laying off thousands, is there a difference???
Is Honda considered a UK Defence contractor??
Well, I'm hearing a lot about jobs, already established they aren't a key UK strategic industry anymore as they A arn't a British company in any way.
and B design nothing anymore, just assemble shipped in parts kits.

Just another factory, it might sound callous, but really no different from Honda shutting up shop.

Perhaps if Sikorski opened a factory in the UK and we re-engined the UH60 and perhaps moved the rotor three inches back, thus quadrupling the price, the UK defence 'traditionalists' among us will be more sympathetic to it.😂😂

Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Posted: 18 Mar 2023, 12:09
by sol
Maybe someone find it interesting. Two part article about AW149 protection

https://uk.leonardo.com/en/news-and-sto ... eld-part-1