New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

If all your wanting to do is zero hour old airframes and have them with unique systems, then you may as well just run on puma no point replacing it.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Little J »

EESDL wrote: 12 Apr 2022, 05:47 Little J - Google is your friend.....
Snip
Thank you for posting all that. I did do a quick Google last night, but the first answers I saw all said that no specifics were given by the Air Force... I should have looked a little harder, but my bed was calling me :shifty:

I am a little surprised at the long list of issues, given that the 139 has been used by a number of militaries around the world, it should be a know quantity... Putting my tin foil hat on for a second, I wonder if they are treating it the same way the VH-71 was treated (overloading it with requirements and equipment beyond what the original role was).

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Lord Jim »

Yes we could put the Puma's through another refit programme to further extend their hours, but these airframes have been around since the early 1970s. I am also biased as I actually want these new, sorry rebuilt helicopter to be operated by the AAC mainly in the Battlefield Support role and tied to 16 Air Assault, forming two Regiments, each of three Squadron of eight platforms. The remainder would be in storage as attrition and maintenance schedule cover. From these you would provide the Detachments in Cyprus and Brunei, and pilots would rotate to gain both mountain and Jungle operating experience, compliments by regular exercises in Norway for arctic training.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by EESDL »

at last - some sense 'spoken' here - and don't forget that it looks 'mean' not 'nice' ;-)

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote: 12 Apr 2022, 16:45 Yes we could put the Puma's through another refit programme to further extend their hours, but these airframes have been around since the early 1970s. I am also biased as I actually want these new, sorry rebuilt helicopter to be operated by the AAC mainly in the Battlefield Support role and tied to 16 Air Assault, forming two Regiments, each of three Squadron of eight platforms. The remainder would be in storage as attrition and maintenance schedule cover. From these you would provide the Detachments in Cyprus and Brunei, and pilots would rotate to gain both mountain and Jungle operating experience, compliments by regular exercises in Norway for arctic training.
I would go one step more and have them with folding rotors so they operate off carriers if needed

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by leonard »

I know this is a unrelated program but i think we can sea where the MOD whant to go with New Medium Helicopter even with a small fleet replacement like bellow
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Lord Jim »

Surely it wouldn't be too hard to bring the above into the NMH programme?

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Jensy »

Something that I missed from the end of last month:

https://uk.leonardocompany.com/en/news- ... ls-sharing

The language of an "additional final assembly line" at Yeovil seems a world away from past promises, both recent and further back regarding the AW189.

Sounds like Brindisi will continue to be the main manufacturing site, with assembly at Verigate and perhaps Yeovil if the AW149 wins.

Pure speculation but Airbus might well have the edge when it comes to 'Built in Britain' credentials.
Lord Jim wrote: 28 Apr 2022, 22:20 Surely it wouldn't be too hard to bring the above into the NMH programme?
Would make sense considering the other Dauphins in UK service are being replaced by NMH.

However the Army also buying H135 to replace Gazelle. Might be a better sized aircraft for the role though neither are marinised.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Lord Jim »

I think a lot depends on the size of helicopter purchased. If the previously mentioned refurbished UH-60s were taken they could easily carry out the roles of the Gazelle, as they would be cheap enough to allow a number for that possibility. But if we are simply looking for a light utility helicopter for zero combat utility then leasing some Civilian Helicopter to replace the few Gazelles that need to be replaced. The NMH isn't really aimed at the Gazelle, its front line role now undertaken by the Wildcat.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by RunningStrong »

Surely the Navy looking to replace Dauphin should be getting involved in this programme as well to ensure value for money and capability?

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... pport-unit

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

RunningStrong wrote: 09 May 2022, 09:39 Surely the Navy looking to replace Dauphin should be getting involved in this programme as well to ensure value for money and capability?

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... pport-unit
You mean like a joined up defence wide look at helicopters with a long term plan for replacement rather than piecemeal bits hear and there…
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by tomuk »

Two different things one is the purchase of helicopters the other is the provision of a crewed helicopter service. Or are we proposing that a contractor take over flying the pumas and their replacement?

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

You can propose the helicopter type so it is consistent with your helicopter fleet family plans and can be integrated with your systems this part of it still can be contractor operated.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by RunningStrong »

tomuk wrote: 09 May 2022, 21:36 Two different things one is the purchase of helicopters the other is the provision of a crewed helicopter service. Or are we proposing that a contractor take over flying the pumas and their replacement?
Hardly different when the requirement is clearly within scope of an in-service or future airframe. It's somewhat different to adversary aircraft that have grown as a contracted service. They wear Royal Navy insignia and have military registrations, so why are they a contracted service today?

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by tomuk »

SW1 wrote: 09 May 2022, 21:43 You can propose the helicopter type so it is consistent with your helicopter fleet family plans and can be integrated with your systems this part of it still can be contractor operated.
Why would you? You're not maintaining or crewing the helicopter, the contractor is. As long as the proposed helicopter can carry out the specified tasks what model it is is irrelevant Now it would be different if you are suggesting they should be military operated.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Lord Jim »

Having a common platform for both service and Contractor use would be a positive if the balloon went up and the Contractor operated helicopter fleet was requisitioned by the MoD.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by tomuk »

Lord Jim wrote: 11 May 2022, 03:57 Having a common platform for both service and Contractor use would be a positive if the balloon went up and the Contractor operated helicopter fleet was requisitioned by the MoD.
What two dauphines or the equivalent thereof aren't going to make much difference if the balloon goes up.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Lord Jim »

True but is all three services used a common type to ferry around their senior officers then who knows.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by leonard »

In the meantime thanks to the great job of Xav we can look at the French Way of their medium helicopter replacement program.I think also that the Thales cockpit will be the same as on the H175 M offering if the UK Mod do not mandates otherwise.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Jensy »

NMH procurement goes live...

https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/ ... esults&p=1

...and the PR blitz begins in earnest.


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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by tomuk »



Building a formerly half Chinese helicopter in a factory that has been building aircraft wings for 40 years what could possibly go wrong?
It could be another Ajax.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Lord Jim »

It could depend on how much UK bespoke alterations are to be made to this or any of the other platforms in the competition. Things like communications and counter measures should be a simple change, but we have to be careful how much we want to alter any design.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by leonard »

In the meantime the AW149 who i would say that is the front runner of this program is taking the flight in another places ( that desert camo is just great )

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2022, 17:44 I would go one step more and have them with folding rotors so they operate off carriers if needed
Puma (previous) refurb considered the risks from the its top heaviness in hard landings... and concluded that as the ground does not move, the risk is not excessive (though the likelihood of falling to one side is high).
... even more so if you have a flat top to land on
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Tempest414 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: 23 May 2022, 09:20
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Apr 2022, 17:44 I would go one step more and have them with folding rotors so they operate off carriers if needed
Puma (previous) refurb considered the risks from the its top heaviness in hard landings... and concluded that as the ground does not move, the risk is not excessive (though the likelihood of falling to one side is high).
... even more so if you have a flat top to land on
Puma has been used at sea by the French , Spanish , Brazil & the US however I was talking about Pumas replacement and that I think it should come with a folding rotor to allow it to operate from carriers , MRSS and even Escorts and OPV's

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