New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

[mrclark303]

Surely Blackhawk is far and away the most proven, lowest risk option for NMH, which is essentially an interim solution.

It also allows for commonality with allies.

The rest could only be selected for reasons other than which is the best tool for the job.

Absolutely, Blackhawk is indeed the obvious choice, affordable, proven and reliable.

It's a tough matured bird and can be patched up and sent out on ops hours after being shot up, this important aspect of conventional aluminium construction can't be over stated

Composite Helicopters get shot up and grounded, prior to careful inspection and technically challenging repairs.

Now a teaming of Chinook and Blackhawk simply works, they can both head into the fight over and over again ....

For that reason alone, keep it simple stupid, it's Blackhawk all the way!

So obviously the Mod will spend four times more than needed on an overly complex, unproven and fragile composite helicopter, that will be delivered 5 years late for good measure .... After all,why change a system that hasn't worked so well for decades!!!!

Well the US Army is for one: 70's design metal Blackhawk out, 2020's design composite Valour in.

Pretty dumb for the UK to buy an obsolete helo.

Well Valour is still many years away from squadron service, probably 10 years.

It's not even in the running, so your argument is slightly puzzling.

Interesting to use the phrase "obsolete", I'm all ears, what's obsolete about about Blackhawk and what can't it do that the other two runners can?

Is the answer, take years to introduce and be extremely expensive

Didn't make an argument. You asked who would change a system that has worked for many decades and I told you the US Army was.

It's not always a question of what something can do, it's often how it does it. For example, a 3 ton world war truck can carry the same as a modern 3 ton truck. But who would want the world war 1 vehicle?

Black Hawk was initially designed in the 1970's. Technology has moved along a pace since then.

It certainly was and it's been refined and modified over the decades, the Leonardo and Airbus offering offer no appreciable advantage over Blackhawk, just delays caused by Mod meddling and considerable extra cost.

If you ask the RAF and Army what they actually want, they will tell you clearly they want Blackhawk.

For that matter the Chinook is considerably older, it doesn't matter, it's still highly capable and constantly updated and upgraded, like Blackhawk.

The Australians are binning off the NH90 for new Blackhawks, the NH90 is a poor excuse of an unreliable MTH, decades younger than Blackhawk and an absolute procurement disaster, as is Tiger, to be replaced with the Apache, a helicopter a decade older in original design.

So new is certainly not better where Helicopters are concerned. Overcomplicated is a handicap when you actually require the equivalent of a tough workhorse, an airborne builders transit if you will.

Kiss, keep it simple stupid!

[SW1]

You keep going on about nh90 it’s not in the competition last time I checked.

Modern helicopters have much better crash and run dry safety systems than old ones.


If you dont want new then simply keep puma.

[Meriv9]

And if we have to take an example of good procurement I wouldn't choose Australian one like the bar to compare others...

[Tempest414]

You keep going on about nh90 it’s not in the competition last time I checked.

Modern helicopters have much better crash and run dry safety systems than old ones.


If you dont want new then simply keep puma.

And you are going on as if UH-60 is an old aircraft and not still a hot line with much better crash and run dry safety systems than the A model way back at the start buying brand new Blackhawks today is not the same as keeping upgraded Puma's if that was the case we would not be buying new Chinooks to replace old ones

We could could buy brand new super Puma's and these would be a world apart from our upgraded Puma's

[SW1]

You keep going on about nh90 it’s not in the competition last time I checked.

Modern helicopters have much better crash and run dry safety systems than old ones.


If you dont want new then simply keep puma.

And you are going on as if UH-60 is an old aircraft and not still a hot line with much better crash and run dry safety systems than the A model way back at the start buying brand new Blackhawks today is not the same as keeping upgraded Puma's if that was the case we would not be buying new Chinooks to replace old ones

We could could buy brand new super Puma's and these would be a world apart from our upgraded Puma's

It is old, updated systems and engines yes but still old. We could keep puma which we have a training system in place for a spares system in place for and it’s a known entity to all. Which is why we’re keeping chinook other reason being there isn’t an alternative heavy lift helicopter.

Im point out there is manufactured alternatives in this country. That does not apply to Blackhawk, sick and tired of repeatedly handing multi billion pound aerospace contracts to US primes with nothing but platitudes in return. The yarn has always been this has to happen as there’s no U.K. alternative not this time.

Personally don’t think these sticking plastics penny packet procurements add much. This really should be the first iteration of a design to replace everything below chinook with a common base design.

[Tempest414]

You keep going on about nh90 it’s not in the competition last time I checked.

Modern helicopters have much better crash and run dry safety systems than old ones.


If you dont want new then simply keep puma.

And you are going on as if UH-60 is an old aircraft and not still a hot line with much better crash and run dry safety systems than the A model way back at the start buying brand new Blackhawks today is not the same as keeping upgraded Puma's if that was the case we would not be buying new Chinooks to replace old ones

We could could buy brand new super Puma's and these would be a world apart from our upgraded Puma's

It is old, updated systems and engines yes but still old. We could keep puma which we have a training system in place for a spares system in place for and it’s a known entity to all. Which is why we’re keeping chinook other reason being there isn’t an alternative heavy lift helicopter.

Im point out there is manufactured alternatives in this country. That does not apply to Blackhawk, sick and tired of repeatedly handing multi billion pound aerospace contracts to US primes with nothing but platitudes in return. The yarn has always been this has to happen as there’s no U.K. alternative not this time.

Personally don’t think these sticking plastics penny packet procurements add much. This really should be the first iteration of a design to replace everything below chinook with a common base design.

Now this I really could get behind

[Ron5]

If you ask the RAF and Army what they actually want, they will tell you clearly they want Blackhawk.

Henry Ford famously said that if he asked his potential customers what they wanted, they would say "a faster horse".

[Ron5]

For that matter the Chinook is considerably older, it doesn't matter, it's still highly capable and constantly updated and upgraded, like Blackhawk.

Nobody is offering a modern Chinook replacement so it's a case of Chinook or nothing.

[SW1]

[Jensy]

I wonder if any consideration has been given to fitting the Aneto to the H175M? Safran made a rather good offer for UK production and MRO if chosen with the AW149.

[Little J]

If you ask the RAF and Army what they actually want, they will tell you clearly they want Blackhawk.

Well, everyone who isn't lining up a job after de-mob flying Puma's to oil and gas platforms

[SW1]

I wonder if any consideration has been given to fitting the Aneto to the H175M? Safran made a rather good offer for UK production and MRO if chosen with the AW149.

Timelines for a/c delivery would rule out a new engine engineering and certification program.

Though it is being used as a power plant for the racer program I believe.

[mrclark303]

I wonder if any consideration has been given to fitting the Aneto to the H175M? Safran made a rather good offer for UK production and MRO if chosen with the AW149.

Timelines for a/c delivery would rule out a new engine engineering and certification program.

Though it is being used as a power plant for the racer program I believe.

Also, time constraints aside, let's remember the huge cost associated with re- engining our unique AH64D's, it doubled the unit cost!

I have to say the H175M is a purposeful looking machine.

As we've discussed, we will probably go the 'political' choice AW149, if we do, we just have to hope and pray the MOD don't start stipulating lots of expensive UK specific changes. Time lines will lengthen and costs will run out of control..

[Dahedd]

Video from Forces News from Oman. It appears the Royal Omani Police have one of their AW-139, the helo that the AW-149 was developed from on loan (perhaps on demand) to the UK forces there as a Medevac. AW-149 is slightly larger and more powerful.

[Jensy]

Interesting piece in Flight Global:

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopter ... 04.article

1) Confirmation of the plan to build an assembly line at Broughton for UK aircraft and export

If selected for NMH, Airbus Helicopters would build H175Ms for the UK and export at a new assembly line in Broughton, North Wales.

2) Armed variant in development, using the HForce light attack suite: https://www.airbus.com/en/products-serv ... ers/hforce

As a further step, Airbus Helicopters is also contemplating the addition of HForce, enabling the integration of a variety of guided and unguided weapons.

Fagot says although early demand is focused on a “tactical troop transportation” version, “for sure, HForce probably will come one day or the other”.

3) Airbus might be willing to part exchange some of our Puma fleet

Separately, Airbus Helicopters appears to be keen on the acquisition of the UK’s Puma fleet for part-out when the helicopters leave service in the coming years, potentially adding a further dimension to its interest in NMH.

Christoph Zammert, executive vice-president customer support and services, says those assets would allow the manufacturer to keep other operators of the legacy type flying.

“Providing the price is right and the documentation there, we would be interested in buying them back.”

Not long to go now on the contest. Considering the remaining bidders, I'd say Airbus now has the most compelling industrial package, though the Yeovil/Westland lobby should not be underestimated.

The Blackhawk is definitely the most proven, though building them in Poland is going to be a tough sell, and I can't say I've read much about the Boeing Grey Hawk bid.

Not to be too controversial, but I can't help but wonder if we're missing a trick by not buying/refurbishing more Puma for the interim...

[Jensy]

...and then there were three:



Boeing and Airbus, proving that rivalry is secondary to sales.

https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... 64791281=1

[Ron5]

Oh good grief, this is shaping up to be yet another exercise where the UK throws away its own industry in the chase for saving a few pennies.

[GarethDavies1]

Probably...feels like Ajax all over again.

[Little J]

Boeing didn't have anything to offer did they (maybe MH-139's, which are smaller than required)? So hardly a surprise.

[Little J]

Boeing didn't have anything to offer did they (maybe MH-139's, which are smaller than required)? So hardly a surprise.

Would have thought AW would have had a no-compete clause with Boeing and the MH-139.

Personally I think we should go with AW....but make Leonardo sweat buckets for it, and absolutely nail them down on work for Yeovil...

[Jensy]

Boeing made a point of stating that they were moving away from being a prime contractor two weeks ago. Presumably something discouraged them from pursuing that role. Whether platform, politics or something else.

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopter ... 94.article

Personally I think we should go with AW....but make Leonardo sweat buckets for it, and absolutely nail them down on work for Yeovil...

I'd be inclined to agree but AW/Leonardo's track record of delivering promised work to Yeovil, even when UK Govt has provided substantial funding, isn't great. Always seem to end up back at Cascina Costa or Verigate... Airbus might just be a bit more hungry for the opportunity.

Meanwhile, as we debate our interim capability, the next gen edges closer:

So far, detailed requirements for the NGRC have not been set. Instead a list of “attributes” was released in May 2021, including capacity for 12-16 fully equipped troops, unrefuelled range of 900nm (1,650km) and a spectrum of cruise speeds: “optimally” this would be 220kt (408km/h) or above, but must be “not less than 180kt”.

Speed may the most contentious of these attributes among the current member nations. Delegates at the IMH event were told that future rotorcraft for the Italian air force would need to travel at 250kt, while French army aviation would maintain its doctrine of nap-of-the-earth flights at around 100kt.

Ah, the beginnings of divided joint programme. How familiar:

“For the concept stage it’s good to keep in mind that we should target only one common airframe and to push for this modularity for NGRC.”

However, two variants could emerge “if we have a quantified justification” that this is the “best solution to tackle the entire spectrum of ConOps”.

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopter ... 13.article

[Ron5]

I'd be inclined to agree but AW/Leonardo's track record of delivering promised work to Yeovil, even when UK Govt has provided substantial funding, isn't great. Always seem to end up back at Cascina Costa or Verigate... Airbus might just be a bit more hungry for the opportunity.

Yep, Ajax redux.

[mrclark303]

I'd be inclined to agree but AW/Leonardo's track record of delivering promised work to Yeovil, even when UK Govt has provided substantial funding, isn't great. Always seem to end up back at Cascina Costa or Verigate... Airbus might just be a bit more hungry for the opportunity.

Yep, Ajax redux.

Or just do a deal with Poland for S70's and they buy additional T31's...

I'm sure we will just chuck money at Leonardo instead...

[Ron5]

To the surprise of no one..

Aviation Week:

Leonardo Helicopters confirms UK NMH schedule slip

Dominic Perry By Dominic Perry, Atlanta6 March 2023

UK defence officials appear to have delayed the next phase of the ongoing New Medium Helicopter (NMH) contest, potentially pushing back the service-entry target for the Puma replacement platform.

Having down-selected bidders in September last year, the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) was supposed to issue the invitation to negotiate (ITN) to the three remaining contenders by the end of the first quarter, according to the most recent schedule.

However, the ITN – essentially the detailed specification, quantity and budget for the procurement – is now unlikely to arrive before mid-year, according to Leonardo Helicopters.

Speaking to journalists ahead of Heli-Expo in Atlanta on 6 March, Gian Piero Cutillo, managing director of Leonardo Helicopters, said the process had “is a little bit delayed”.

Shortlisted bidders were briefed by the MoD on the updated timeline at an industry day on 24 February.

Stefano Villanti, senior vice-president of sales and marketing at Leonardo Helicopters, says the ITN is now expected to be released in May or June, although the MoD “has not specified an exact date”; a contract award is now anticipated in 2024, he adds.

Under the MoD’s initial schedule, deliveries were meant to begin in 2025 allowing the progressive retirement of the Royal Air Force’s fleet of Puma HC2 transports.

But Villanti says the date for the first delivery was not specified at the industry day. “The process has dragged on for longer [than expected] so 2025 is going be a challenge,” he adds.

Leonardo Helicopters is offering the AW149 for the NMH requirement, which would be built at the airframer’s site in Yeovil, southwest England. It faces competition from the Airbus Helicopters H175M – to be assembled at Broughton in North Wales – and the Sikorsky S-70M.

Up to 44 helicopters could be procured under NMH, as the MoD attempts to replace the Puma and three other smaller rotorcraft fleets in the UK’s inventory.

[Jensy]

I'd be inclined to agree but AW/Leonardo's track record of delivering promised work to Yeovil, even when UK Govt has provided substantial funding, isn't great. Always seem to end up back at Cascina Costa or Verigate... Airbus might just be a bit more hungry for the opportunity.

Yep, Ajax redux.

Well, on that note, the logical solution to both seems to have been to opt for a newer version of the platform being replaced: Stormer 30 or Airbus H215 (Super Puma), whilst the characteristics of the next generation is determined properly.

Neither of which we seemed to have taken even a cursory look at.