New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Given how fudged up the program is, this is not really a surprise to anyone is it?
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Needlessly over complicated and drawn out process. Should've just gone with AW149 5 years ago. Don't understand why we have to over complicate every military procurement project.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
'Big' surprise, Leonardo were always going to get the contract.new guy wrote: ↑30 Aug 2024, 22:14 https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... er-pursuit
Lockheed have also pulled out.
We all suspect the 'avaliable' budget, will lead to a procurement for about 20 aircraft.
If we are going for a mere handful, just forget it and lease a suitable off the shelf option.
The only way ordering 20 odd airframes makes any sense at all, is if we order a second batch of Merlin HC4 to re-enforce the RN fleet.
That way they at least they act as a force multiplier.
I'm aware that's a larger helicopter than required, but it's really the only way such a small order number makes sense and provides real utility and bang for the buck.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Just like the black hawk option, AW149 also has the same engine as AH-64E.
AW149 is offered with two engine choices:
Safran
General Electric
The GE's are the same as the engines in our new AH-64E's. Same as the US Army's new AH-64E's and the same as their uprated Black Hawks. There is a full MRO facility in Gosport that would be expanded out of necessity if we went with more GE T700 engines. They've been servicing Irish Coast Guard / Bristow AW189's in the last week or so.
We could swap the GE T700 engines between any AW149 purchased with them and our purchased AH-64E's.
As for wildcat, the airframes themselves are very tough. Composite. Designed and built for Maritime use. Lots of scope for stripping, refurbishing and resetting to "Zero Hours".
It may be feasible to bring in the gearbox and GE engines from AW189/AW149 to Wildcat as well. Diameters are similar, engine length is longer but with scope to accommodate this.
Much more power would be available, with scope to run the newer generation engines at a lower percentage than maximum to maintain fuel consumption.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Why does he want to put T700's in the Wildcats? Purely for commonality or is there really a need for the extra 1,200 horses?
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
His points seem to be:
- Commonality
- Upgrading away from a system designed to fit for old Lynx
- Fuel consumption
- Platform life extension / longevity
- Power for next gen equipment
The AW159's gearbox and engine choice was aimed at laying a pathway to upgrade British and export Super Lynx to the Wildcat platform.
Consequently their LHTEC engines and gearbox could be meatier for the aircraft.
The airframes themselves are very tough. Composite. Designed and built for Maritime use. Lots of scope for stripping, refurbishing and resetting to "Zero Hours".
It may be feasible to bring in the gearbox and GE engines from AW189/AW149 to Wildcat as well. Diameters are similar, engine length is longer but with scope to accommodate this.
Much more power would be available, with scope to run the newer generation engines at a lower percentage than maximum to maintain fuel consumption.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
I like the idea of the AW bid but what quantity are being considered and will Labor government cough up the coins.new guy wrote: ↑03 Sep 2024, 17:43 Just like the black hawk option, AW149 also has the same engine as AH-64E.
AW149 is offered with two engine choices:
Safran
General Electric
The GE's are the same as the engines in our new AH-64E's. Same as the US Army's new AH-64E's and the same as their uprated Black Hawks. There is a full MRO facility in Gosport that would be expanded out of necessity if we went with more GE T700 engines. They've been servicing Irish Coast Guard / Bristow AW189's in the last week or so.
We could swap the GE T700 engines between any AW149 purchased with them and our purchased AH-64E's.
As for wildcat, the airframes themselves are very tough. Composite. Designed and built for Maritime use. Lots of scope for stripping, refurbishing and resetting to "Zero Hours".
It may be feasible to bring in the gearbox and GE engines from AW189/AW149 to Wildcat as well. Diameters are similar, engine length is longer but with scope to accommodate this.
Much more power would be available, with scope to run the newer generation engines at a lower percentage than maximum to maintain fuel consumption.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Assuming the budget remains,
on the lower end (£900m) it will give 18-22 units,
on the higher end (£1.2bn), 24-30 units.
Req was max 44 helicopters, to replace 35.
MoD has decided for 6 of those to be replaced by H145,
removing £122m from any budget.
That is assuming a Cost of £40-50m, which is reasonable, in Poland's case it was £25m for 32, + new production line, vs Yeovil which is already established.
Yeovil has also produced the civilian variant of the AW149, the AW189, in Yeovil before.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
In today's Telegraph (£)
(Special appearance by Prof. Bronk... )
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... cellation/
(Special appearance by Prof. Bronk... )
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... cellation/
Plans to replace the RAF’s ageing battlefield helicopters have been thrown into doubt after two of the three expected bidders for the £1bn contract walked away.
Airbus and US manufacturer Sikorsky both failed to submit bids to replace the fleet of 50-year-old Pumas ahead of a deadline on Friday, saying terms of the contract weren’t sufficiently attractive. It leaves only Italy’s Leonardo in the running.
Industry and defence sources said the likelihood of the Government proceeding with the tender had been greatly diminished in the absence of competition, which would have helped to keep costs down.
John Healey, the Defence Secretary, signalled on Tuesday that some military projects were in doubt as the Government moves to slash spending. He said “tough choices” must be made across Whitehall and will include the Armed Forces.
A decision to scrap the tender would cast doubt on the future of Britain’s only helicopter plant.
Formerly known as Westland Helicopters, now part of Leonardo, the factory produced the Sea King and Lynx models and employs 3,300 people. Westland would assemble the Puma replacements at its Yeovil site should Leonardo’s bid be successful.
The site makes Wildcat and Merlin helicopters for export but has little order visibility over future work.
Scrapping the tender would leave Britain reliant on the Pumas, a battlefield workhorse model that is “used in a variety of combat roles, including the tactical movement of troops, weapons, ammunition and stores on the battlefield”, according to the RAF.
First entering service in the early 1970s, the Pumas have been used in Northern Ireland, Iraq, former Yugoslavia and Afghanistan. The helicopters, which can hold up to 16 passengers or two tonnes of freight, are also used in humanitarian missions such as evacuations and disaster relief efforts.
Defence analyst Francis Tusa said of the replacement tender: “This is an obvious programme for Labour to cut. But if they do cancel it the question is whether we will still want to have a UK helicopter industry in 10 years’ time?
“If we do, there is going to have to be some work given to Leonardo. It’s hard to see how they are going to get by on upgrades and exports alone.”
Leonardo has said that replacing the Pumas with its AW149 model would support jobs at the Westland plant and add hundreds more.
irbus said it pulled out of the bidding process because it was impossible to formulate a bid that would have satisfied the MoD, produced sufficient returns and given it a realistic chance of winning.
A source close to the process said the Franco-German company felt that the MoD had given it insufficient credit for its investment and jobs pledge, despite recent changes in procurement rules that placed more emphasis on the social value of defence spending.
The company had pledged to build a new factory adjoining its jetliner wing plant outside Chester if it won the contract. The facility would have employed about 400 people and carried out full production of the H175M model, a militarised version of the most popular model used in North Sea oil and gas fields, that Airbus had pitched for the contract.
Sikorsky, part of Lockheed Martin, the world’s biggest defence company, said it scrapped proposals involving its Black Hawk model because it could not meet the minimum requirements specified in the tender in today’s market conditions.
Leonardo said it had met all of the tender requirements and urged the MoD to accelerate the programme to save time and costs. As much as 70pc of the value of the helicopters would come from the UK and the AW149 could potentially also be worth billions in exports, it said.
While Labour has said that it intends to spend 2.5pc of GDP on defence – above the Nato commitment of 2pc – as soon as possible, it has ordered a strategic defence review with the aim of matching spending to current and emerging threats.
Professor Justin Bronk, a senior research fellow at the Royal United Services Institute, said supporting big ticket programmes such as Britain’s nuclear deterrent, the Tempest future fighter and the Aukus defence pact with Australia and the US would take priority.
He said: “The MoD’s priorities are clearly defence against Russia and Britain’s warfighting capabilities, so Labour will inevitably be looking at whether it needs these helicopters.”
While the MoD originally sought up to 44 aircraft as part of the New Medium Helicopter (NMH) requirement, that number is understood to have been reduced to no more than 30 and perhaps as few as 25, acting as a further disincentive to bidders.
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) said the NMH programme remained an “important initiative,” without confirming that an order will be placed.
A spokesman said: “Progress is continuing and we will be reviewing a proposal from industry.”
Though scrapping the tender would leave Britain reliant on the Pumas, critics of the process say the machines still in service could carry on flying well into the 2030s.
There are questions over whether the Pumas need replacing even in the longer term, with some defence experts arguing that the reconnaissance and “battlefield taxi” services they provide could be performed by the RAF’s bigger Merlin and Chinook models.
Westland was the subject of the 1986 standoff between then prime minister Margaret Thatcher, who had favoured its takeover by Sikorsky, and her defence secretary Michael Heseltine, who backed a European deal, which briefly appeared to threaten the prime minister’s tenure.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Personal .02 EUR - Leonardo needs to be kept going so that the UK can play a part in future NATO helicopter developments and promising developments like Proteus.
The alternative is a Barrow-style "valley of death" or an AFV industry-style wipeout, both of which may be more expensive in the medium term than a billion and change over several years. Also deeply sceptical that "Chinook can do everything". Also sceptical that running Puma on forever so we can be an early adopter of V280 - with all the entailed risks and costs - is a smart bet either
The alternative is a Barrow-style "valley of death" or an AFV industry-style wipeout, both of which may be more expensive in the medium term than a billion and change over several years. Also deeply sceptical that "Chinook can do everything". Also sceptical that running Puma on forever so we can be an early adopter of V280 - with all the entailed risks and costs - is a smart bet either
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
You'll be lucky getting half those numbers. Buying a new type adds wads of other expense.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
UK Politicians and the Treasury planning for the future??? Are you insane??SD67 wrote: ↑04 Sep 2024, 12:41 Personal .02 EUR - Leonardo needs to be kept going so that the UK can play a part in future NATO helicopter developments and promising developments like Proteus.
The alternative is a Barrow-style "valley of death" or an AFV industry-style wipeout, both of which may be more expensive in the medium term than a billion and change over several years. Also deeply sceptical that "Chinook can do everything". Also sceptical that running Puma on forever so we can be an early adopter of V280 - with all the entailed risks and costs - is a smart bet either
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
IMHO we should just subcontract out the MOD to Australia and PolandRon5 wrote: ↑04 Sep 2024, 14:09UK Politicians and the Treasury planning for the future??? Are you insane??SD67 wrote: ↑04 Sep 2024, 12:41 Personal .02 EUR - Leonardo needs to be kept going so that the UK can play a part in future NATO helicopter developments and promising developments like Proteus.
The alternative is a Barrow-style "valley of death" or an AFV industry-style wipeout, both of which may be more expensive in the medium term than a billion and change over several years. Also deeply sceptical that "Chinook can do everything". Also sceptical that running Puma on forever so we can be an early adopter of V280 - with all the entailed risks and costs - is a smart bet either
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
And so it continues....
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -raf-deal/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -raf-deal/
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
Herc15 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2024, 22:27 And so it continues....
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... -raf-deal/
IMHO just give leonardo the contract
Airbus is preparing to revive plans for a new helicopter factory in the UK as part of its attempt to secure a £1bn contract from the Ministry of Defence (MoD).
The manufacturing giant has indicated it could proceed with the plant after reversing its decision to pull out of the bidding to replace the RAF’s Puma helicopter fleet last month.
At the time of its withdrawal, Airbus said the terms of the MoD’s tender weren’t sufficiently attractive for it to proceed.
However, Bruno Even, Airbus Helicopters boss, has unveiled a sweetened proposal which he hopes will satisfy obstacles relating to the Government’s defence spending review.
As part of its new approach, Airbus will resurrect plans to build a new factory in Broughton, Flintshire, creating hundreds of jobs in the process.
It is at this plant that Airbus, if successful in the tender, would build a fleet of H175M helicopters. To reduce costs, it would also keep the RAF’s existing Puma fleet flying for several years longer through its maintenance programme.
Bosses hope this will deliver enough savings to convince the Government to award Airbus the £1bn contract as the MoD seeks to cut costs as part of its ongoing spending review.
Mr Even said: “We are open to discussions depending on the conclusion of the defence strategy review. If there is a will from the MoD side to revisit the future of this campaign, we are ready.
“There is time to review things. The Pumas can continue to fly until 2035 and we have committed to continue to support them.”
Airbus had touted the proposed factory during initial negotiations with the Government, although the company walked away from the bidding process in August after claiming it was commercially unviable.
Sikorsky Aircraft, a US-based rival, also pulled out – leaving just Leonardo of Italy, which owns Britain’s only current helicopter plant, in the running.
However, Mr Even said Airbus was now willing to reconsider.
He said: “We took the decision to withdraw only after concluding that we could not provide long-term returns to our business, address the requirements in terms of social value and industry capacity and still have a fair chance to win.
“But we are not the only ones to take this decision, which questions the current set of requirements.”
This puts Airbus back in competition with Leonardo, which produces the AW149 helicopter through its site in Yeovil, where around 3,300 people are employed.
Leonardo, Airbus’s competitor for the government contract, produces the AW149 helicopter through its site in Yeovil Credit: Avpics / Alamy Stock Photo
Mr Even said his company’s H175M model remained the best suited to succeed the Puma, a battlefield workhorse that has seen action in Iraq, ex-Yugoslavia and Afghanistan.
He said: “In terms of performance, competitiveness and value creation, including the commitment we took to set up industrial capability, we are convinced that it is the best proposal.”
While the MoD originally sought up to 44 aircraft as part of the £1bn contract, that number is understood to have been reduced to no more than 30 and perhaps as few as 25.
A source said previously that Airbus felt the tender rules had not given it sufficient credit for its investment and jobs pledge.
While Airbus does not produce helicopters in the UK, it has had maintenance, delivery and training operations in the country for half a century.
Mr Even’s comments came after the opening of a new £55m headquarters and hangar for the business at Oxford Airport, which was attended by the Prince of Wales.
The company supplies more than half of the civil helicopters flying in Britain, including all police models and two thirds of air ambulances, many of them serviced in Oxford.
RAF, Navy and Army pilots train exclusively on Airbus H135 and H145 helicopters. The H145 was also recently chosen to replace a small number of Pumas operating with British forces in Cyprus and Brunei.
Mr Even said that the Puma, which can carry 16 passengers or two tonnes of cargo, nevertheless remained “a fantastic helicopter” which, though designed in the 1970s, was capable of fulfilling mission requirements, if the MoD opted to retain it.
The RAF’s Pumas have been in service since the early 1970s Credit: Senior Aircraftman Ryan Murray/RAF
Used to move troops, weapons and ammunition on the battlefield, the RAF models have had a midlife upgrade including new engines.
He said: “We are committed to the Puma and ready to continue to support the Puma in the current defence planning review and under the current budget constraints.”
The executive said that Airbus had other export prospects for the H175 and did not rule out alternative locations for a new plant outside the UK should those come to fruition.
He said: “Depending on the conclusion we reach with some customers, it could be that we decide to develop this footprint elsewhere.”
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
A lot of hot air. The problem with the program is that it's not sufficiently funded. Unless the one billion is increased, the MoD is not going to get what it wants/needs.
Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... l-leonardoLive and let fly: James Bond helicopter firm awaits UK decision on £1bn deal
Jobs in Yeovil, the UK’s last helicopter factory, could be at risk if Labour decides not to award contract to Leonardo
- Workers at the Somerset factory are upgrading the aircraft for the Canadian air force, a lucrative source of income for its owner, Italian state-backed weapons maker Leonardo.
But Leonardo has its eyes on a bigger prize for Yeovil: after a drawn-out process, it has emerged as the single bidder for a £1bn contract to build new medium-sized helicopters to replace the Pumas used for decades by the Royal Air Force in conflicts around the world.
Yet with Labour in the UK carrying out a strategic defence review, some in the industry believe the helicopter purchase could be scrapped altogether by a government that has stressed the gloomy state of the public finances.
What happens next matters hugely for Britain’s last remaining helicopter factory, the Somerset market town of Yeovil, and Britain’s wider defence industry. In a local population of about 50,000 people – with several areas in the 20% most deprived wards in England – Leonardo employs 3,300, many of them at higher pay than the surrounding area.
Various aircraft in the flight hanger at Yeovil Leonardo SpA
Leonardo employs 3,300 people in the Yeovil area at its factory. Photograph: Simon Pryor
The town’s history is inseparable from the factory. The first aircraft, a seaplane, left the Westland aircraft works on 1 January 1916 on a horse and cart, according to Leonardo. During the second world war the site – which still retains some overgrown pillboxes – made the Seafire, the marine version of the famous Spitfire, before switching to helicopters. Westland became a household name in the 1980s when a row over its future nearly brought down the government of Margaret Thatcher.
Leonardo insists the MoD purchase is not at risk, despite rivals Airbus and Sikorsky quitting the competition last month. Clive Higgins, the chief executive of Leonardo’s UK arm, said that “we absolutely need a medium-lift platform” and that he was confident that the company can meet specifications that rivals thought were too testing.
Leonardo, like the defence industry as a whole, has benefited from the huge rise in military spending prompted by Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine. The Italian company’s share price has more than tripled since the start of 2022, valuing it at more than €12bn (£10bn).
AW159 Wildcat helicopters being moved to next stage in building at Yeovil. Photograph: Simon Pryor
The invasion, other conflicts such as the Middle East crisis, and the perceived threat of Chinese aggression have contributed towards a consensus among Nato allies that more military spending is required. Labour under Keir Starmer and defence secretary John Healey are on board.
Previous Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn was deeply sceptical of the weapons industry, and Leonardo’s Edinburgh operation has been targeted by protesters alleging it supplies parts for the F35 fighter jets used by Israel in Gaza. (Leonardo said it is subject to UK government export controls and does not supply equipment direct to Israel.) But Starmer’s Labour wants to use weapons purchases to support UK manufacturing jobs – deepening a policy introduced by the previous Conservative government.
That should be good news for jobs at Yeovil. Leonardo was always in a good position to win the contract against rival bids from European aerospace champion Airbus and America’s Sikorsky, owned by Lockheed Martin. Airbus had pledged to invest in an assembly line in Broughton, north Wales, and Sikorsky in Gosport, Hampshire.
However, the new medium helicopter competition has turned into a headache after Airbus and Sikorsky pulled out of the running on the day that bids were supposed to be sent in. Both companies said they did not believe it was possible to deliver the programme at the cost envisaged.
AW149 military helicopter
Leonardo is hoping to build AW149 military helicopters in Yeovil for the Royal Air Force. Photograph: Bloomberg/Getty Images
Leonardo is putting forward the AW149, capable of carrying 19 troops, which is currently made in Italy, albeit using some parts and designs made in Yeovil. Leonardo has already started to install equipment for a new UK line, ready to produce the new helicopters within two years.
That would add to the existing vast hangar where new aircraft are assembled – mostly by hand – to satisfy exacting military customers. Merlin and Wildcat choppers for Brazil, Portugal and Norway were among those dismantled to varying degrees when the Guardian visited the factory which sits in an 89-hectare (220-acre) site.
Adam Clarke, the managing director of Leonardo Helicopters UK, repeatedly touted the factory’s “end-to-end capability” of the UK’s only helicopter factory. The sprawling site’s responsibilities range from making helicopter blades – stacked in racks in a new warehouse – and gearboxes to certifying airworthiness and training pilots in simulators.
Clive Higgins, the chief executive of Leonardo’s UK arm
Clive Higgins, the chief executive of Leonardo’s UK arm, is confident the company can meet the MoD’s specifications. Photograph: JoJo Cockerell
“You can’t simply say ‘I’m going to take an aircraft that has never been built and stick it in a factory that’s never done it’,” said Higgins – a swipe at “pop-up factory” rivals that had planned to assemble helicopters from foreign-made parts.
“You could well get that level of service from another international partner,” he said, “but would you be at the front of the queue against all of the other international customers and their indigenous domestic market? You might not be.”
After passing through various owners, Italy’s Finmeccanica took over Westland in 2004 before changing its name to the Renaissance inventor (and would-be helicopter designer) Leonardo da Vinci.
Leonardo’s UK operations made profits of £188m in 2023 on turnover of £2.3bn. £830m of those sales came from helicopters. But another key source of business is work on radios and sensors on the joint Tempest programme between the UK, Italy and Japan to produce a new fighter jet by 2035.
Tempest will be a vital part of the Labour review, but Higgins indicated that there is little doubt over its future.
The UK’s next generation combat aircraft, the Tempest
Leonardo is also working on radios and sensors for the UK’s next-generation combat aircraft, the Tempest. Photograph: BAE Systems/PA
“There’s activity taking place so rapidly on this,” he said. “I think government are very keen to make sure it’s moving forward and we’ll see other updates in the next few weeks I’m sure.”
But on the helicopter contract, Yeovil may have to wait. The Labour review is due to report in the spring.
Helicopters – like other expensive military kit – often get overhauled, with replacements to engines or electronics stretching the life of the “same” aircraft out for decades. Airbus last overhauled the Puma in 2011 with new engines and cockpits, and Bruno Even, the chief executive of Airbus Helicopters, claimed it could operate until 2035.
By that point “vertical lift” may have changed. Nato is working on the next-generation rotorcraft capability (NGRC) project which could result in more “tilt-rotor” craft such as Boeing’s V-22 Osprey, which can fly faster horizontally and vertically, while a European effort involves Airbus and Leonardo. Airbus is focusing on a design that puts extra backwards-facing rotors on a helicopter so it can go faster.
The Royal Air Force could make do with its current generation of upgraded Puma helicopters. Photograph: Cpl. L Matthews/MoD handout/EPA
Meanwhile, the rise of drones in civilian life and warfare and electric passenger rotorcraft could add more challenges to the helicopter industry.
Making do with the Pumas could prove an attractive prospect to politicians looking for savings. Leonardo has already bet heavily on tilt-rotor craft, but Clarke said the hope to translate “paperwork exercises” into working machines by 2035 is “very very sporty”.
“I think it will be very expensive,” he said. “If you’re speaking from a taxpayer’s perspective, I don’t know that that’s the best use of money.”
In the meantime, Leonardo is hoping the UK government will be swayed by the economic benefits to Yeovil.
“The value proposition that comes from Yeovil to UK plc is significant,” said Higgins. “If you take something like [the] new medium [helicopter] alone, we know there’s a market internationally for 500-550 platforms. Why wouldn’t UK government want to benefit of that activity taking place here in the UK?”
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)
So Leonardo's AW149 is the only bidder and it is up to the government tp proceed