New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

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It's February 2024 - Which way is NMH going to go?

Please note that results are sorted by decreasing number of votes received.

Leonardo AW-149
11
61%
Sikorsky S-70M Black Hawk
4
22%
Programme cancelled
2
11%
Airbus H-175M
1
6%
Boeing MH-139 (back from the dead?)
0
No votes
Puma kept in service till next-gen
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 18

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote: 08 Dec 2022, 22:47
Little J wrote: 08 Dec 2022, 22:20 Sorry, I didn't do a good job of explaining my thoughts...

Whatever replaces Puma long term, should be able to fold-up for easy deployment, whether it be via Carrier or C-17 (or anything else that i cant think of at the moment). I confess I don't know if the standard Valor can wing fold, but surely it would be better to only have one type in service, rather than -A, -B, -C, etc?

The STOVL comment was in joking reference to F-35's all so far being claimed by the RAF
But that's precisely the kind of gold plating that means we end up paying massively more and not getting the advantage of the larger airframe commonality with allied force users. It's precisely why UK Apache force was horrendously expensive.

A V280 wouldn't need to be C17 transportable, it has a ferry range of 2000 miles. Chinook has been stowed in QE2 hangar without folding, would need to do a compatibility check to see if it fits down the lift.
I'm with @Little J, foolish not to marinize all new UK helo's.

The carriers will be one of the primary places for them to operate. Not sending Puma to sea had more to do with them falling over than lack of requirement to do so.

Not sure that would imply folding or not. Rather depends on how the European Merlin etc replacement program turns out. Probably yes.

Apache AH1 being so expensive for so little extra was not caused by any Naval requirement. More the switch in engines and UK build. My understanding is that the replacement Apache will be marinized.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Little J »

I do get what you're saying RunningStrong, but I'll counter with these...

An official (for example) Naval version of Valor, that could have been adopted by USMC and/or other marine type units from other countries by the time we are interested, is a little bit different to WAH-64...

And while self deploying is a great thing, stuffing as many as possible in a ship (in a Falklands type operation) would be an advantage would it not?

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by topman »

Flexibility always comes at a financial cost, if you can pay for it you can have whatever you like.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

topman wrote: 09 Dec 2022, 10:02 Flexibility always comes at a financial cost, if you can pay for it you can have whatever you like.
Can come with savings to offset some of that extra. I stress "can".

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

Ron5 wrote: 07 Dec 2022, 16:36
mrclark303 wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 19:59
NicerCuddly wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 09:55 Surely Blackhawk is far and away the most proven, lowest risk option for NMH, which is essentially an interim solution.

It also allows for commonality with allies.

The rest could only be selected for reasons other than which is the best tool for the job.
Absolutely, Blackhawk is indeed the obvious choice, affordable, proven and reliable.

It's a tough matured bird and can be patched up and sent out on ops hours after being shot up, this important aspect of conventional aluminium construction can't be over stated

Composite Helicopters get shot up and grounded, prior to careful inspection and technically challenging repairs.

Now a teaming of Chinook and Blackhawk simply works, they can both head into the fight over and over again ....

For that reason alone, keep it simple stupid, it's Blackhawk all the way!

So obviously the Mod will spend four times more than needed on an overly complex, unproven and fragile composite helicopter, that will be delivered 5 years late for good measure .... After all,why change a system that hasn't worked so well for decades!!!!
Well the US Army is for one: 70's design metal Blackhawk out, 2020's design composite Valour in.

Pretty dumb for the UK to buy an obsolete helo.
Well Valour is still many years away from squadron service, probably 10 years.

It's not even in the running, so your argument is slightly puzzling.

Interesting to use the phrase "obsolete", I'm all ears, what's obsolete about about Blackhawk and what can't it do that the other two runners can?

Is the answer, take years to introduce and be extremely expensive 🤣

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Little J »

mrclark303 wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 19:12 Well Valour is still many years away from squadron service, probably 10 years.

It's not even in the running, so your argument is slightly puzzling.

Interesting to use the phrase "obsolete", I'm all ears, what's obsolete about about Blackhawk and what can't it do that the other two runners can?

Is the answer, take years to introduce and be extremely expensive 🤣
If you wanted to run away from composites and be cheap, then they shouldn't have bothered with NMH and just ordered some Puma's from Airbus Heli

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

As the Blackhawk rotors are nomex composite better pass on it then and go for a local manufactured option.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Tempest414 »

Ron5 wrote: 09 Dec 2022, 06:01
RunningStrong wrote: 08 Dec 2022, 22:47
Little J wrote: 08 Dec 2022, 22:20 Sorry, I didn't do a good job of explaining my thoughts...

Whatever replaces Puma long term, should be able to fold-up for easy deployment, whether it be via Carrier or C-17 (or anything else that i cant think of at the moment). I confess I don't know if the standard Valor can wing fold, but surely it would be better to only have one type in service, rather than -A, -B, -C, etc?

The STOVL comment was in joking reference to F-35's all so far being claimed by the RAF
But that's precisely the kind of gold plating that means we end up paying massively more and not getting the advantage of the larger airframe commonality with allied force users. It's precisely why UK Apache force was horrendously expensive.

A V280 wouldn't need to be C17 transportable, it has a ferry range of 2000 miles. Chinook has been stowed in QE2 hangar without folding, would need to do a compatibility check to see if it fits down the lift.
I'm with @Little J, foolish not to marinize all new UK helo's.

The carriers will be one of the primary places for them to operate. Not sending Puma to sea had more to do with them falling over than lack of requirement to do so.

Not sure that would imply folding or not. Rather depends on how the European Merlin etc replacement program turns out. Probably yes.

Apache AH1 being so expensive for so little extra was not caused by any Naval requirement. More the switch in engines and UK build. My understanding is that the replacement Apache will be marinized.
From my last visit to Wattisham the UK Apache force had learnt a lot lot from on going deployment on Ocean and these lessons were being transferred to the E model this included making key parts better for life at sea

Also they had just finished a stint on QE and said operating the Apache off the carrier was so much easier due to size and visual cuing

As for any Puma replacement I believe it must be able to fold to allow it to operate from from ships at sea as going forward we will have less helicopters so will have the need to be able to operate from ships as well

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

Little J wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 05:14
mrclark303 wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 19:12 Well Valour is still many years away from squadron service, probably 10 years.

It's not even in the running, so your argument is slightly puzzling.

Interesting to use the phrase "obsolete", I'm all ears, what's obsolete about about Blackhawk and what can't it do that the other two runners can?

Is the answer, take years to introduce and be extremely expensive 🤣
If you wanted to run away from composites and be cheap, then they shouldn't have bothered with NMH and just ordered some Puma's from Airbus Heli
Well, Puma has a serious issue that limits it's effectiveness, it's very top heavy and unsuitable for amphibious operations, apart from the most benign of environments.

Blackhawk is an utterly matured machine and does exactly what it says on the tin.

we have to stop wasting precious defence money when the armed forces ' clearly vocalise' what they want.

Unfortunately all military aircraft programmes have certain forces working against them.

" Thrust, Drag, Lift and Politics"

The most important 'Political Force' acting against any new Medium Transport Helicopter is keeping the Wastelands factory open.

This is the No1 priority politically and it's got nothing to do with the platform, it's to do with wider implications regarding the fledgling Tempest Consortium and courting the Italians.

So the smart money will go on the Italian helicopter, assembled in a wholly owned Italian Factory, at four times the cost of the equivalent UH60 buy, when you factor the development and delays into the equation.

But the prototype has Union Flag decals all over it, so it's obviously the patriotic choice....

They come right off with a hot air gun and that's about the depth of British involvement!

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

Tempest414 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 08:51
Ron5 wrote: 09 Dec 2022, 06:01
RunningStrong wrote: 08 Dec 2022, 22:47
Little J wrote: 08 Dec 2022, 22:20 Sorry, I didn't do a good job of explaining my thoughts...

Whatever replaces Puma long term, should be able to fold-up for easy deployment, whether it be via Carrier or C-17 (or anything else that i cant think of at the moment). I confess I don't know if the standard Valor can wing fold, but surely it would be better to only have one type in service, rather than -A, -B, -C, etc?

The STOVL comment was in joking reference to F-35's all so far being claimed by the RAF
But that's precisely the kind of gold plating that means we end up paying massively more and not getting the advantage of the larger airframe commonality with allied force users. It's precisely why UK Apache force was horrendously expensive.

A V280 wouldn't need to be C17 transportable, it has a ferry range of 2000 miles. Chinook has been stowed in QE2 hangar without folding, would need to do a compatibility check to see if it fits down the lift.
I'm with @Little J, foolish not to marinize all new UK helo's.

The carriers will be one of the primary places for them to operate. Not sending Puma to sea had more to do with them falling over than lack of requirement to do so.

Not sure that would imply folding or not. Rather depends on how the European Merlin etc replacement program turns out. Probably yes.

Apache AH1 being so expensive for so little extra was not caused by any Naval requirement. More the switch in engines and UK build. My understanding is that the replacement Apache will be marinized.
From my last visit to Wattisham the UK Apache force had learnt a lot lot from on going deployment on Ocean and these lessons were being transferred to the E model this included making key parts better for life at sea

Also they had just finished a stint on QE and said operating the Apache off the carrier was so much easier due to size and visual cuing

As for any Puma replacement I believe it must be able to fold to allow it to operate from from ships at sea as going forward we will have less helicopters so will have the need to be able to operate from ships as well
Absolutely, Blackhawk already has manually folding wings and flight deck tie down points, easy to transport via A400/C17 and deployable in the amphibious role when needed.

Flexible, reliable, matured and deliverable quickly and cost effectively.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Tempest414 »

It is interesting that Australia has dumped NH-90 and gone for UH-60 for this very reason they wanted a well proven helicopter that they could also operate from there LHD's they also said UH-60 offered them a proven and reliable through life cost plan

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Australia tried to use their internal spares holding system which wasn’t compatible with the airbus system and as such lost control of aircraft configuration as they didn’t know what parts they put on the aircraft where at what flight hours, or so the story goes. That’s why they got rid, some say if they attempt the same it will happen with Blackhawk too.

The French have used puma at sea for a long time. Just saying

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Tempest414 »

Lets not forget that Australia only retired there Blackhawks a year ago this every week and on the same day said they would replace NH-90 with more Blackhawks so they have a long standing history with UH-60 and clearly think it better suits there needs
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

Tempest414 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 09:08 It is interesting that Australia has dumped NH-90 and gone for UH-60 for this very reason they wanted a well proven helicopter that they could also operate from there LHD's they also said UH-60 offered them a proven and reliable through life cost plan
Absolutely, what is left to say quite frankly.....

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 09:23 Australia tried to use their internal spares holding system which wasn’t compatible with the airbus system and as such lost control of aircraft configuration as they didn’t know what parts they put on the aircraft where at what flight hours, or so the story goes. That’s why they got rid, some say if they attempt the same it will happen with Blackhawk too.

The French have used puma at sea for a long time. Just saying
That's only part of the reason unfortunately, the NH90 has had appalling reliability and is effectively being dumped, left right and centre....

Yes, the French do use it at sea, but they have always had a slightly different approach to accepted safety.

In anything but mill pond conditions, it's dangerous to land a Puma on a pitching deck, it's strictly emergency use only, center of gravity just too high....

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:00
SW1 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 09:23 Australia tried to use their internal spares holding system which wasn’t compatible with the airbus system and as such lost control of aircraft configuration as they didn’t know what parts they put on the aircraft where at what flight hours, or so the story goes. That’s why they got rid, some say if they attempt the same it will happen with Blackhawk too.

The French have used puma at sea for a long time. Just saying
That's only part of the reason unfortunately, the NH90 has had appalling reliability and is effectively being dumped, left right and centre....

Yes, the French do use it at sea, but they have always had a slightly different approach to accepted safety.

In anything but mill pond conditions, it's dangerous to land a Puma on a pitching deck, it's strictly emergency use only, center of gravity just too high....
Americans use puma at sea too

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Tempest414 »

yes the privet company AAR use Puma for the USN contact I have to say I like Puma a lot all my dealings with the type have been positive

But it is time to move on and the UH-60M & V are a new gen of a proven type that many in the Airforce have wanted for a long time

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:35 yes the privet company AAR use Puma for the USN contact I have to say I like Puma a lot all my dealings with the type have been positive

But it is time to move on and the UH-60M & V are a new gen of a proven type that many in the Airforce have wanted for a long time
Great provide same industrial offsets as others are proposing then or the cost of not doing so should be added to the Blackhawk bid.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Little J »

mrclark303 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 08:55 We have to stop wasting precious defence money when the armed forces ' clearly vocalise' what they want.

Unfortunately all military aircraft programmes have certain forces working against them.

" Thrust, Drag, Lift and Politics"

The most important 'Political Force' acting against any new Medium Transport Helicopter is keeping the Wastelands factory open.

This is the No1 priority politically and it's got nothing to do with the platform, it's to do with wider implications regarding the fledgling Tempest Consortium and courting the Italians.

So the smart money will go on the Italian helicopter, assembled in a wholly owned Italian Factory, at four times the cost of the equivalent UH60 buy, when you factor the development and delays into the equation.

But the prototype has Union Flag decals all over it, so it's obviously the patriotic choice....

They come right off with a hot air gun and that's about the depth of British involvement!
Yes politics plays a massive part, if it didn't what little we still make in this country would have gone years ago.

The Uh-60 is a great aircraft, and Westland should have been building it for us and Export donkeys years ago. But that opportunity flew to Poland... Now we need to keep factories ticking over till the next big project. And having Aw149 or H175m built here, while not as great as '60 can still do a job

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

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SW1 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:37
Tempest414 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:35 yes the privet company AAR use Puma for the USN contact I have to say I like Puma a lot all my dealings with the type have been positive

But it is time to move on and the UH-60M & V are a new gen of a proven type that many in the Airforce have wanted for a long time
Great provide same industrial offsets as others are proposing then or the cost of not doing so should be added to the Blackhawk bid.
Not my job

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:37
Tempest414 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:35 yes the privet company AAR use Puma for the USN contact I have to say I like Puma a lot all my dealings with the type have been positive

But it is time to move on and the UH-60M & V are a new gen of a proven type that many in the Airforce have wanted for a long time
Great provide same industrial offsets as others are proposing then or the cost of not doing so should be added to the Blackhawk bid.
Also this is a different area of the program we are talking about proven costs both in buying and though life and not industrial off setting so we may well buy UH-60 and then get industrial off set in another program

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Tempest414 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 13:36
SW1 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:37
Tempest414 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:35 yes the privet company AAR use Puma for the USN contact I have to say I like Puma a lot all my dealings with the type have been positive

But it is time to move on and the UH-60M & V are a new gen of a proven type that many in the Airforce have wanted for a long time
Great provide same industrial offsets as others are proposing then or the cost of not doing so should be added to the Blackhawk bid.
Also this is a different area of the program we are talking about proven costs both in buying and though life and not industrial off setting so we may well buy UH-60 and then get industrial off set in another program
Yeah that never happens. May as well tear up any industrial strategy not worth the appear it’s written on.

Why no one trusts MoD to see thru tempest.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

Little J wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:45
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 08:55 We have to stop wasting precious defence money when the armed forces ' clearly vocalise' what they want.

Unfortunately all military aircraft programmes have certain forces working against them.

" Thrust, Drag, Lift and Politics"

The most important 'Political Force' acting against any new Medium Transport Helicopter is keeping the Wastelands factory open.

This is the No1 priority politically and it's got nothing to do with the platform, it's to do with wider implications regarding the fledgling Tempest Consortium and courting the Italians.

So the smart money will go on the Italian helicopter, assembled in a wholly owned Italian Factory, at four times the cost of the equivalent UH60 buy, when you factor the development and delays into the equation.

But the prototype has Union Flag decals all over it, so it's obviously the patriotic choice....

They come right off with a hot air gun and that's about the depth of British involvement!
Yes politics plays a massive part, if it didn't what little we still make in this country would have gone years ago.

The Uh-60 is a great aircraft, and Westland should have been building it for us and Export donkeys years ago. But that opportunity flew to Poland... Now we need to keep factories ticking over till the next big project. And having Aw149 or H175m built here, while not as great as '60 can still do a job
An excellent point! Westland not taking up Blackhawk production back in the 1980's was a huge clanging mistake with flashing lights, fireworks and a 40 foot neon sign that says " This is a mistake" .....

I absolutely concede that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will do the job, in a more delicate and far more expensive platform, probably limiting numbers to 30.as the cost over runs mushroom out of control.

They inevitably always do.....

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 13:50
Little J wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 11:45
mrclark303 wrote: 12 Dec 2022, 08:55 We have to stop wasting precious defence money when the armed forces ' clearly vocalise' what they want.

Unfortunately all military aircraft programmes have certain forces working against them.

" Thrust, Drag, Lift and Politics"

The most important 'Political Force' acting against any new Medium Transport Helicopter is keeping the Wastelands factory open.

This is the No1 priority politically and it's got nothing to do with the platform, it's to do with wider implications regarding the fledgling Tempest Consortium and courting the Italians.

So the smart money will go on the Italian helicopter, assembled in a wholly owned Italian Factory, at four times the cost of the equivalent UH60 buy, when you factor the development and delays into the equation.

But the prototype has Union Flag decals all over it, so it's obviously the patriotic choice....

They come right off with a hot air gun and that's about the depth of British involvement!
Yes politics plays a massive part, if it didn't what little we still make in this country would have gone years ago.

The Uh-60 is a great aircraft, and Westland should have been building it for us and Export donkeys years ago. But that opportunity flew to Poland... Now we need to keep factories ticking over till the next big project. And having Aw149 or H175m built here, while not as great as '60 can still do a job
An excellent point! Westland not taking up Blackhawk production back in the 1980's was a huge clanging mistake with flashing lights, fireworks and a 40 foot neon sign that says " This is a mistake" .....

I absolutely concede that either the Airbus or Leonardo offering will do the job, in a more delicate and far more expensive platform, probably limiting numbers to 30.as the cost over runs mushroom out of control.

They inevitably always do.....

Bit like that off the shelf in production E7 that will be on budget on time low risk best deal ever we horsed off to uncle sam …..
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

mrclark303 wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 19:12
Ron5 wrote: 07 Dec 2022, 16:36
mrclark303 wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 19:59
NicerCuddly wrote: 03 Dec 2022, 09:55 Surely Blackhawk is far and away the most proven, lowest risk option for NMH, which is essentially an interim solution.

It also allows for commonality with allies.

The rest could only be selected for reasons other than which is the best tool for the job.
Absolutely, Blackhawk is indeed the obvious choice, affordable, proven and reliable.

It's a tough matured bird and can be patched up and sent out on ops hours after being shot up, this important aspect of conventional aluminium construction can't be over stated

Composite Helicopters get shot up and grounded, prior to careful inspection and technically challenging repairs.

Now a teaming of Chinook and Blackhawk simply works, they can both head into the fight over and over again ....

For that reason alone, keep it simple stupid, it's Blackhawk all the way!

So obviously the Mod will spend four times more than needed on an overly complex, unproven and fragile composite helicopter, that will be delivered 5 years late for good measure .... After all,why change a system that hasn't worked so well for decades!!!!
Well the US Army is for one: 70's design metal Blackhawk out, 2020's design composite Valour in.

Pretty dumb for the UK to buy an obsolete helo.
Well Valour is still many years away from squadron service, probably 10 years.

It's not even in the running, so your argument is slightly puzzling.

Interesting to use the phrase "obsolete", I'm all ears, what's obsolete about about Blackhawk and what can't it do that the other two runners can?

Is the answer, take years to introduce and be extremely expensive 🤣
Didn't make an argument. You asked who would change a system that has worked for many decades and I told you the US Army was.

It's not always a question of what something can do, it's often how it does it. For example, a 3 ton world war I truck can carry the same as a modern 3 ton truck. But who would want the world war I vehicle?

Black Hawk was initially designed in the 1970's. Technology has moved along a pace since then.

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