New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Contains threads on Joint Service equipment of the past, present and future.

It's February 2024 - Which way is NMH going to go?

Please note that results are sorted by decreasing number of votes received.

Leonardo AW-149
11
61%
Sikorsky S-70M Black Hawk
4
22%
Programme cancelled
2
11%
Airbus H-175M
1
6%
Boeing MH-139 (back from the dead?)
0
No votes
Puma kept in service till next-gen
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 18

SW1
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 11:29
SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 10:30 Your industrial strategy is to retain the design integration, manufacture test skills in rotorcraft industry…..Aerospace is an expensive business but you get better outcomes if you keep the design integration and test in country .
It’s highly unlikely the NMH contract will be awarded before the GE so there is still time to crystallise a longer term strategy before SDSR2025.

• Maximising Chinook numbers makes sense provided the costs remain sensible.

• Transferring all Wildcat across to RN makes sense as the Army never wanted them and RN will need them if the surface fleet is to grow.

• The Merlin’s are going to give great service to RN so no need for any changes there.

• The Puma (and Wildcat) replacements are the only area that needs a rethink. It’s not clear that any of the options on the table are suitable for a universal airframe to form the foundation of a multi tranche procurement strategy going forward.

Therefore without a viable alternative, is groping around for a long term industrial strategy based upon an airframe that doesn’t currently exist just more unnecessary procrastination?
They haven’t been able to crystallise a long term strategy for 30 years why do u think a general election will change things?


The rest of your post is the perfect example of why we have the small niche fleets we do. It’s that which has to change if you want the long term strategy you claim you do of not having small numbers.

You could order 200 helicopters in 2025 and replace the lot below chinook with it if you are after mass.

Sorry which airframe doesn’t exist? All examples in the nmh contact are flying helicopters.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by new guy »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 11:29 (and Wildcat) replacements
Probably just invest in drones. If anything more is needed, I would say H145.

. Cheap

. Many in service with the RAF for training, 6 more ordered for Cyprus and Brunei, as well as the 5 H135 the Army are leasing to Australia and the 2 in the Cayman Islands Regiment.

. This is in addition to the multiple other government services in the UK operating them, like the police, and The German Bundeswehr and Airbus Helicopters have signed a contract for the purchase of up to 82 multi-role H145M helicopters (62 firm orders plus 20 options) for military roles. The Bundeswehr already operates 16 H145M LUH SOF and 8 H145 LUH SAR helicopters. The US Army employs almost 500 helicopters from the H145 family under the name of UH-72 Lakota. Current operators of the H145M are Hungary, Serbia, Thailand and Luxembourg; Cyprus has ordered six aircraft.

. If the order was big enough we could establish a major manufacturing and maintenance centre in Broughton mitigating Airbus not getting NMH order.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 21:27
Ron5 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 21:20
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 20:49 If they are falling over themselves for Blackhawk and wish to ignore the supposed industrial strategy cut the program delete the funding.

They might get the message then that industrial resilience matters it’s not a catchy sound bite.
yeah, that'll help the squaddies
Does in France and Italy
What on earth does that mean?? I'm not aware of any defense program which had its funding deleted, in either Italy or France, because there was no suitable home grown product and I know there are many foreign made products in service with both countries.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 10:30 Your industrial strategy is to retain the design integration, manufacture test skills in rotorcraft industry.
None of the NMH candidates does this so your argument is just plain nonsense.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 10:30 We operate over 200 helicopter below chinook
Ah Chinook, such a great example of a product that benefits UK industry. According to your proposal, it should have all its funding deleted.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 12:09 Sorry which airframe doesn’t exist? All examples in the nmh contact are flying helicopters.
The perfect all-rounder doesn’t currently exist.

Which of the NMH contenders are:

• As accomplished at ASuW as a Wildcat?

• As accomplished at ASW as a Merlin?

• As good a battlefield helo as a Blackhawk?

It would need to be marinised with folding rotors, have excellent speed, perform well at altitude and maintain excellent reliability in the artic, jungle and desert.

It’s a great idea but it might be best just to buy 50x UH-60 and immediately start the process of designing a universal helo design for joint use in the RAF, Army and RN.

There isn’t another decade to spare anymore.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 14:41 It’s a great idea but it might be best just to buy 50x UH-60 and immediately start the process of designing a universal helo design for joint use in the RAF, Army and RN.
Already happening with the NATO Next-Generation Rotorcraft Capability (NGRC) program. Supposed to produce the Merlin replacement amongst others.

Of course, France is off to one side running its own EEC program. No conflict of interest there.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by new guy »

Ron5 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 14:47
Poiuytrewq wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 14:41 It’s a great idea but it might be best just to buy 50x UH-60 and immediately start the process of designing a universal helo design for joint use in the RAF, Army and RN.
Already happening with the NATO Next-Generation Rotorcraft Capability (NGRC) program. Supposed to produce the Merlin replacement amongst others.

Of course, France is off to one side running its own EEC program. No conflict of interest there.
Leonardo and Bell recently signed a MOU for tilltrotor cooperation surrounding NGRC.

https://www.leonardo.com/en/press-relea ... ?f=%2Fhome
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 14:41
SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 12:09 Sorry which airframe doesn’t exist? All examples in the nmh contact are flying helicopters.
The perfect all-rounder doesn’t currently exist.

Which of the NMH contenders are:

• As accomplished at ASuW as a Wildcat?

• As accomplished at ASW as a Merlin?

• As good a battlefield helo as a Blackhawk?

It would need to be marinised with folding rotors, have excellent speed, perform well at altitude and maintain excellent reliability in the artic, jungle and desert.

It’s a great idea but it might be best just to buy 50x UH-60 and immediately start the process of designing a universal helo design for joint use in the RAF, Army and RN.

There isn’t another decade to spare anymore.

Perfection is a myth

The airframe for all contenders exists as I said up thread you pick the base platform and develop and integrate sensors systems on that platform as demanded by role when it comes time for the next fleet to be replaced until they are all replaced. Therefore producing a long term relationship with the industry in airframe, sensor and weapons so you R&D spend flows through to your front line.


Both leonardo and airbus have offered production lines and full integration in the uk with airbus also offering export from there line.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Ron5 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 13:14
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 21:27
Ron5 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 21:20
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 20:49 If they are falling over themselves for Blackhawk and wish to ignore the supposed industrial strategy cut the program delete the funding.

They might get the message then that industrial resilience matters it’s not a catchy sound bite.
yeah, that'll help the squaddies
Does in France and Italy
What on earth does that mean?? I'm not aware of any defense program which had its funding deleted, in either Italy or France, because there was no suitable home grown product and I know there are many foreign made products in service with both countries.
There is suitable home grown medium helicopter offering in the uk.

France doesnt select foreign tat when home grown options are available neither does Italy, neither for that matter for Korea. They’ve learned spend you defence cash at home

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Caribbean »

new guy wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 12:23 . Many in service with the RAF for training, 6 more ordered for Cyprus and Brunei, as well as the 5 H135 the Army are leasing to Australia and the 2 in the Cayman Islands Regiment.
The Cayman Islands Regiment doesn't have any helicopters. Probably meant the Royal Cayman Islands Police Service, who have two - one locally purchased & one partly financed by the UK. Selected mainly because the previous Chief of Police was licensed on the H135 - now they have one local civilian pilot, a police pilot, another police pilot in training (he's a special constable) and an ex-AAC pilot from the UK (dream job, eh!)
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 15:13 There is suitable home grown medium helicopter offering in the uk
Don't be daft, there's no "home grown" UK medium helicopter.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 15:11 Both leonardo and airbus have offered production lines and full integration in the uk with airbus also offering export from there line
Full integration = assembly of kits produced abroad with a smidgen of UK parts.

All three offer that with varying amounts of smidgen. No R&D, no design, no prototyping etc etc. None of the three offerings brings the UK any closer to be able to produce a "home grown" helicopter.

And, by the way, two are civilian helicopters painted green and one is battle designed, tested & proven and in service with many of our allies, including the biggest.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 11:29
SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 10:30 Your industrial strategy is to retain the design integration, manufacture test skills in rotorcraft industry…..Aerospace is an expensive business but you get better outcomes if you keep the design integration and test in country .
It’s highly unlikely the NMH contract will be awarded before the GE so there is still time to crystallise a longer term strategy before SDSR2025.

• Maximising Chinook numbers makes sense provided the costs remain sensible.

• Transferring all Wildcat across to RN makes sense as the Army never wanted them and RN will need them if the surface fleet is to grow.

• The Merlin’s are going to give great service to RN so no need for any changes there.

• The Puma (and Wildcat) replacements are the only area that needs a rethink. It’s not clear that any of the options on the table are suitable for a universal airframe to form the foundation of a multi tranche procurement strategy going forward.

Therefore without a viable alternative, is groping around for a long term industrial strategy based upon an airframe that doesn’t currently exist just more unnecessary procrastination?
As ever we are in sync mate. Absolutely agree with Army Wildcat, it's a pointless asset for the AAC and a graphic example of SW1's industrial strategy "to retain the design integration, manufacture test skills in rotorcraft industry".

The above strategy drove the design and procument of the Wildcat, a helicopter resisted by the Army, but politically forced upon them at huge expense.

Army Wildcat is neither fish nor foul, not really equipped to do anything bar cost a lot of money to retain and operate.....

It's an example of how politically driven procument just throws money away on equipment that tends to be extremely expensive and often no better than what's already available at considerably less cost.

Absolutely agree, get rid of Army Wildcat, I would however transfer an additional 15 to the RN for naval rework and sell 19 off on the international market, in an attempt to kickstart exports...

I would then buy 80 odd Blackhawks, split between the RAF and Army, I would consider refurbished ex US army examples, re built to Romeo configuration and zero houred for 20 years of service.

If you wish to consider an industrial strategy, the work to be carried out in the UK, alongside a UK partner, with this facility providing subsequent in service support, repair, overhaul and upgrade.

Nothing to stop Leonardo from putting in a bid for this, or any other aviation engineering company.

Marshalls for example....

That way you retain the ability to overhaul repair and upgrade helicopters in the UK.

The design element of the individual strategy is dead and buried anyway, Wildcat was the final UK design helicopter, everything since , i.e the perspective AW149, is 100% Italian, I can't understand why they keep pushing it as British......
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Ron5 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 16:51
SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 15:11 Both leonardo and airbus have offered production lines and full integration in the uk with airbus also offering export from there line
Full integration = assembly of kits produced abroad with a smidgen of UK parts.

All three offer that with varying amounts of smidgen. No R&D, no design, no prototyping etc etc. None of the three offerings brings the UK any closer to be able to produce a "home grown" helicopter.

And, by the way, two are civilian helicopters painted green and one is battle designed, tested & proven and in service with many of our allies, including the biggest.

Your Clueless on the matter but then what’s new.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 15:13
Ron5 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 13:14
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 21:27
Ron5 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 21:20
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 20:49 If they are falling over themselves for Blackhawk and wish to ignore the supposed industrial strategy cut the program delete the funding.

They might get the message then that industrial resilience matters it’s not a catchy sound bite.
yeah, that'll help the squaddies
Does in France and Italy
What on earth does that mean?? I'm not aware of any defense program which had its funding deleted, in either Italy or France, because there was no suitable home grown product and I know there are many foreign made products in service with both countries.
There is suitable home grown medium helicopter offering in the uk.

France doesnt select foreign tat when home grown options are available neither does Italy, neither for that matter for Korea. They’ve learned spend you defence cash at home
Possibly why France has a fleet Tiger and NH90 helicopters that spend most of their time sat on the ground waiting parts for repair, with appalling reliability.

These wonderful Eurocopter helicopters (Tiger and NH90) are being ditched left right and center, with even core consortium member Germany, ditching the unreliable Tiger...

They also lack any heavy lift helicopters...

So, not a great example of how to equip your armed forces SW1....
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Little J »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 14:41 The perfect all-rounder doesn’t currently exist.

Which of the NMH contenders are:

• As accomplished at ASuW as a Wildcat?

• As accomplished at ASW as a Merlin?

• As good a battlefield helo as a Blackhawk?

It would need to be marinised with folding rotors, have excellent speed, perform well at altitude and maintain excellent reliability in the artic, jungle and desert.
You just described the NH-90 when it was in the concept phase... Shame they fooked it right up when they designed and built it :lol:
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

Little J wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 20:17
Poiuytrewq wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 14:41 The perfect all-rounder doesn’t currently exist.

Which of the NMH contenders are:

• As accomplished at ASuW as a Wildcat?

• As accomplished at ASW as a Merlin?

• As good a battlefield helo as a Blackhawk?

It would need to be marinised with folding rotors, have excellent speed, perform well at altitude and maintain excellent reliability in the artic, jungle and desert.
You just described the NH-90 when it was in the concept phase... Shame they fooked it right up when they designed and built it :lol:
Quite, a maritime helicopter with corrosion problems, troop transport with floor plates easily buckled, reliability all round that's descending into farce and last but not least, an important export customer like Australia that's literally scrapping it's fleet, along with its equally poor Tigers....

It's a very poor show indeed, thank Christ we at least didn't become part of the utter train wreck that is Eurocopter......

Re Tiger, the UK very sensibly got out of the proposed European joint attack helicopter project of the mid 1980's, when we ( and the Italians) very sensibly proposed the AH109 as the base design to build upon.

The French ( huge surprise) and Germans insisted on a totally clean sheet design, the UK and Italy walked and it all turned to utter rat shit from that point forward....

Decades later, Tiger and the NH90 continue to embarrass, still lurching from one crisis to the next.....

You couldn't make it up....
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

mrclark303 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 17:18
SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 15:13
Ron5 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 13:14
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 21:27
Ron5 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 21:20
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 20:49 If they are falling over themselves for Blackhawk and wish to ignore the supposed industrial strategy cut the program delete the funding.

They might get the message then that industrial resilience matters it’s not a catchy sound bite.
yeah, that'll help the squaddies
Does in France and Italy
What on earth does that mean?? I'm not aware of any defense program which had its funding deleted, in either Italy or France, because there was no suitable home grown product and I know there are many foreign made products in service with both countries.
There is suitable home grown medium helicopter offering in the uk.

France doesnt select foreign tat when home grown options are available neither does Italy, neither for that matter for Korea. They’ve learned spend you defence cash at home
Possibly why France has a fleet Tiger and NH90 helicopters that spend most of their time sat on the ground waiting parts for repair, with appalling reliability.

These wonderful Eurocopter helicopters (Tiger and NH90) are being ditched left right and center, with even core consortium member Germany, ditching the unreliable Tiger...

They also lack any heavy lift helicopters...

So, not a great example of how to equip your armed forces SW1....
UH-60 must be really crap helicopter best we not touch it with a barge pole

https://verticalmag.com/news/black-hawk ... afety/?amp

“Army data published in the January 2021 issue of Flightfax, an online Army aviation safety newsletter, shows 160 total UH-60 mishaps between 2016 and 2020, of which 18 were “Class A” that resulted in at least $2 million in damage and/or the death or permanent disability of personnel.”

Or maybe it is way more complicated than your simple narrative makes out and it’s not confined to Europe or Australia (who where there own worst enemy)

“During the commission’s six-year study period, aviation mishaps cost the U.S. military 198 lives, 157 aircraft, and more than $9 billion in damage. The report elaborates on safety issues related to human performance, environmental factors like command structure, morale and operational demand, and “machine” factors, but does not detail or enumerate safety records of individual aircraft types.

After visiting 80 U.S. military sites and consulting 200 aviation units, NCMAS members found that pilots were not flying enough hours to remain proficient, maintenance personnel were insufficiently trained and suffered from low morale, and that supply chains lacked adequate throughput to keep aircraft in flying shape. “

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 04 Mar 2024, 09:43
mrclark303 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 17:18
SW1 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 15:13
Ron5 wrote: 03 Mar 2024, 13:14
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 21:27
Ron5 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 21:20
SW1 wrote: 02 Mar 2024, 20:49 If they are falling over themselves for Blackhawk and wish to ignore the supposed industrial strategy cut the program delete the funding.

They might get the message then that industrial resilience matters it’s not a catchy sound bite.
yeah, that'll help the squaddies
Does in France and Italy
What on earth does that mean?? I'm not aware of any defense program which had its funding deleted, in either Italy or France, because there was no suitable home grown product and I know there are many foreign made products in service with both countries.
There is suitable home grown medium helicopter offering in the uk.

France doesnt select foreign tat when home grown options are available neither does Italy, neither for that matter for Korea. They’ve learned spend you defence cash at home
Possibly why France has a fleet Tiger and NH90 helicopters that spend most of their time sat on the ground waiting parts for repair, with appalling reliability.

These wonderful Eurocopter helicopters (Tiger and NH90) are being ditched left right and center, with even core consortium member Germany, ditching the unreliable Tiger...

They also lack any heavy lift helicopters...

So, not a great example of how to equip your armed forces SW1....
UH-60 must be really crap helicopter best we not touch it with a barge pole

https://verticalmag.com/news/black-hawk ... afety/?amp

“Army data published in the January 2021 issue of Flightfax, an online Army aviation safety newsletter, shows 160 total UH-60 mishaps between 2016 and 2020, of which 18 were “Class A” that resulted in at least $2 million in damage and/or the death or permanent disability of personnel.”

Or maybe it is way more complicated than your simple narrative makes out and it’s not confined to Europe or Australia (who where there own worst enemy)

“During the commission’s six-year study period, aviation mishaps cost the U.S. military 198 lives, 157 aircraft, and more than $9 billion in damage. The report elaborates on safety issues related to human performance, environmental factors like command structure, morale and operational demand, and “machine” factors, but does not detail or enumerate safety records of individual aircraft types.

After visiting 80 U.S. military sites and consulting 200 aviation units, NCMAS members found that pilots were not flying enough hours to remain proficient, maintenance personnel were insufficiently trained and suffered from low morale, and that supply chains lacked adequate throughput to keep aircraft in flying shape. “
Just to put some context on this the US Army operates 1600 Blackhawk's and the US military has over 8000 aircraft
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Little J »

Or to put more context on it, the UH-60 has a worse crash rate per 1,000h than the V-22...

There's always a different way of looking at things.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by Ron5 »

@SW1 forgot to show the last paragraph in the article:
That many accidents during a collective 1.7 million flight hours gave a rate of .87 class A mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, lower than the Army’s overall rate of 1.03 and lower than the H-60’s previous five-year rate of 1.04. Flightfax’s review of the period between 2016 and 2020 shows human error was the primary cause factor in 83 percent of the mishaps with the remaining 17 percent attributed to mechanical failure.
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by SW1 »

Ron5 wrote: 04 Mar 2024, 14:46 @SW1 forgot to show the last paragraph in the article:
That many accidents during a collective 1.7 million flight hours gave a rate of .87 class A mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, lower than the Army’s overall rate of 1.03 and lower than the H-60’s previous five-year rate of 1.04. Flightfax’s review of the period between 2016 and 2020 shows human error was the primary cause factor in 83 percent of the mishaps with the remaining 17 percent attributed to mechanical failure.
Still don’t get it I see, it’s not the accidents it’s the why it happened in the first place!

“ NCMAS members found that pilots were not flying enough hours to remain proficient, maintenance personnel were insufficiently trained and suffered from low morale, and that supply chains lacked adequate throughput to keep aircraft in flying shape”

It’s not unique to European helicopters and what mrclarke303 and his buy American cheer leaders ignore. It doesn’t matter who you buy the helicopter from, if you don’t put in place the spares holdings and parts managements systems to control configuration you get shit results even in the good old us of a because your pilots can’t fly the helicopters! It’s helps if you supply chains are as short as possible
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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by bobp »

So out of 1600 Blackhawks only 18 were Class A write offs. How many of those were combat damage in places like Afghanistan.

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Re: New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

Post by mrclark303 »

SW1 wrote: 04 Mar 2024, 15:57
Ron5 wrote: 04 Mar 2024, 14:46 @SW1 forgot to show the last paragraph in the article:
That many accidents during a collective 1.7 million flight hours gave a rate of .87 class A mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, lower than the Army’s overall rate of 1.03 and lower than the H-60’s previous five-year rate of 1.04. Flightfax’s review of the period between 2016 and 2020 shows human error was the primary cause factor in 83 percent of the mishaps with the remaining 17 percent attributed to mechanical failure.
Still don’t get it I see, it’s not the accidents it’s the why it happened in the first place!

“ NCMAS members found that pilots were not flying enough hours to remain proficient, maintenance personnel were insufficiently trained and suffered from low morale, and that supply chains lacked adequate throughput to keep aircraft in flying shape”

It’s not unique to European helicopters and what mrclarke303 and his buy American cheer leaders ignore. It doesn’t matter who you buy the helicopter from, if you don’t put in place the spares holdings and parts managements systems to control configuration you get shit results even in the good old us of a because your pilots can’t fly the helicopters! It’s helps if you supply changes are as short as possible
"mrclark303 and his buy American cheer leaders"

Sounds like a great band, I'll get my guitar out 😂

Seriously, I'm not sure your fixation on this buy American comes from?

I could mention your buy Italian fixation....

Why do I want Blackhawk.... As Ron put it, it's the only Helicopter designed from the ground up to be a Tonka tough battlefield helicopter, specifically designed from Vietnam UH1 experience to absorb battlefield damage.

The other options are adjusted Civilian helicopters.

Oh, the armed forces have wanted them 'for years', but let's not have what the Army and RAF actually want get in the way of future juicy non executive board positions on the Leonardo board....
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Ron5

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