New Medium Helicopter [NMH] - (RAF & AAC)

[SW1]

Ignoring of course the requirement is based around the need to move a 12 man team that certain customers of the service wish to configure themselves as which Blackhawk can’t do but puma can it’s fine I guess.

[Little J]

The 149 is an adapted civilian helicopter, features like retractable undercarriage just add to complexity.

It's not Tonka

It's really very simple, the Army and RAF want Blackhawk, ever wondered why?

Like Blackhawk, it's tough and capable of receiving small arms fire and keeping going....

We need an airborne builders van, not a Lamborghini...

If you can't see the glaring simple fact that this Helicopter will likely get shot at due to its job of dropping/ extracting troops under fire, I don't know what else to say....

I think you need to start consulting to the DoD, they're about to make the horrendous decision to replace all their Blackhawks with composite aircraft, that have "complex" undercarriage and drive systems (V-280 and SB-1 both fit this description). Ignoring all the lessons learnt from Vietnam, when it sounds like what they should have done is to replace them with UH-1Y's

[mrclark303]

The 149 is an adapted civilian helicopter, features like retractable undercarriage just add to complexity.

It's not Tonka

It's really very simple, the Army and RAF want Blackhawk, ever wondered why?

Like Blackhawk, it's tough and capable of receiving small arms fire and keeping going....

We need an airborne builders van, not a Lamborghini...

If you can't see the glaring simple fact that this Helicopter will likely get shot at due to its job of dropping/ extracting troops under fire, I don't know what else to say....

I think you need to start consulting to the DoD, they're about to make the horrendous decision to replace all their Blackhawks with composite aircraft, that have "complex" undercarriage and drive systems (V-280 and SB-1 both fit this description). Ignoring all the lessons learnt from Vietnam, when it sounds like what they should have done is to replace them with UH-1Y's

Still many, many years from service, so we will see.

I guarantee if something needs to fly into the shit and bullets on a hot LZ it will be Chinook, that said, the US Army will certainly be demanding Tonka tough new toys something the Marine Corps V22 certainly isn't, so it will be interesting to what solutions they derive at.

By the way, retractable undercarriage is a 'given' when you get aboue 250 knots...

[Little J]

I guarantee if something needs to fly into the shit and bullets on a hot LZ it will be Chinook, that said, the US Army will certainly be demanding Tonka tough new toys something the Marine Corps V22 certainly isn't, so it will be interesting to what solutions they derive at.

By the way, retractable undercarriage is a 'given' when you get above 250 knots...

I doubt that very much, it's literally in the name of the program "Future Long-Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA)", the whole idea is that it does Island hopping with the Chinese, with the speed to get there first and push the advance.

By the way, their "Tonka" tough new toys will be made of composites.

[mrclark303]

I guarantee if something needs to fly into the shit and bullets on a hot LZ it will be Chinook, that said, the US Army will certainly be demanding Tonka tough new toys something the Marine Corps V22 certainly isn't, so it will be interesting to what solutions they derive at.

By the way, retractable undercarriage is a 'given' when you get above 250 knots...

I doubt that very much, it's literally in the name of the program "Future Long-Range Assault Aircraft (FLRAA)", the whole idea is that it does Island hopping with the Chinese, with the speed to get there first and push the advance.

By the way, their "Tonka" tough new toys will be made of composites.

Indeed, hence "it will be interesting to see what solutions they derive at"

[new guy]

Was H215 or 225 never considered? Many nations are buying them.

[Little J]

Indeed, hence "it will be interesting to see what solutions they derive at"

You really think that having sunk millions into FLRAA to replace all Blackhawks (20 years later than its original OoS date), that they then hold their hands up and start a parallel program for a conventional helicopter for "assault" work only? I'll have some of what you've been drinking please

No wait, I'd laugh my arse off if they did and chose the AW149 (as they already have the MH-139)

[wargame_insomniac]

The Blackhawk is one of those iconic American military weapons, along with likes of Abrams, Bradley and Apache, and like these others all designed and brought into service in late 1970s or 1980s and proved in combat in Operation Desert Storm. And thus these have all been in service for roughly four decades and are in the process of being reviewed for replacement.

The Blackhawk in particular was designed in early 1970s and brought into service in 1979 so is around 43-44 years old, and the V280 has already been selected as the Blackhawk replacement.

So I don't understand those who are seemingly obsessed with the idea that British Army should pick the ageing Blackhawk as its FUTURE new helicopter.

What is the expected service life for NMH? If it is say 20 years then that means the Blackhawk will be 70 years old design and 60 years in service.

Presumably the spare parts will get ever more expensive the longer they are out of production??

[mrclark303]

Indeed, hence "it will be interesting to see what solutions they derive at"

You really think that having sunk millions into FLRAA to replace all Blackhawks (20 years later than its original OoS date), that they then hold their hands up and start a parallel program for a conventional helicopter for "assault" work only? I'll have some of what you've been drinking please

No wait, I'd laugh my arse off if they did and chose the AW149 (as they already have the MH-139)

No, no, do pay attention at the back or I'll make you sit at the front

'Clearly' it will be of composite construction, so it will be interesting to see what's being considered to Tonka it.

Some form of ceramic lightweight armour in key areas perhaps, who knows.

Bear in mind, what's flying now is only in the prototype stage, it's 'many years' away from squadron service.... At least 10, probably 15.

The US Army won't accept anything that's not capable of taking smallarms fire, as it's mission will be to directly put itself into harms way on occasion.

[Little J]

The same material that can and would be used on an aw149 or H175m in UK service you mean

[mrclark303]

The same material that can and would be used on an aw149 or H175m in UK service you mean

Nope, I doubt it, we didn't specify protection for Merlin, then or now, so nope....

[Jensy]

Lockheed touts ‘incredible export opportunities’ for UK linked to NMH bid


Long story short, full details will be released next week at DSEI.

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/lo ... mpaign=RSS

Lockheed Martin insists that a selection of its Sikorsky S-70M Black Hawk by the UK for its New Medium Helicopter (NMH) competition would open up “incredible export opportunities” for the country, as the airframer prepares to disclose how it will address the social value requirements of the contest.

Although Sikorsky has long been clear on the identity of its NMH contender aircraft, there has been little visibility on how it would build the helicopter in the UK, especially given an existing European assembly line for the S-70 at its PZL Mielec subsidiary in Poland.

Poland of course now has an assembly line for both Blackhawk and AW149.... which at varying points over the last 30+ years we've managed to reject both of... Yet apparently (according to LockMart's marketing/governmental bribery division) somehow the S-70 will be the "most British" in the NMH competition.

Describing the Black Hawk as the “perfect utility helicopter” for the NMH requirement, he says the company will reveal “how our team of UK industry partners” will deliver Black Hawks for the UK as well as addressing “incredible export opportunities”, he says.

The level of UK industrial participation it is proposing is such that Sikorsky will bill the S-70 as the “most British helicopter” in the contest, FlightGlobal understands. Rivals Airbus Helicopters and Leonardo Helicopters are pitching their respective H175M and AW149 platforms, both of which would be built in the UK for the domestic and export markets.

Given the cost advantages of Sikorsky’s existing production line in Poland over whatever it creates in the UK, the airframer is likely to focus on the export potential of certain elements – such as mission systems or sustainment – rather than the bare airframe.

Interesting link to the Chinook shambles I've been whining about on the Wokka thread...

[The MoD] recently appointed a procurement official to lead the effort, in early August confirming Commodore Jolyon Woodard as senior responsible owner (SRO) for the NMH programme until October 2024; he has held the post on an interim basis since October 2021.

Separately, Woodard has also been appointed as SRO for the MoD’s Chinook Capability Sustainment Programme, which is seeking to acquire 14 examples of the extended-range variant of Boeing’s heavy-lifter, widely tipped to be the MH-47G model operated by US special forces. In turn, the Royal Air Force will retire the oldest Chinooks in its fleet.

Woodard’s tasks include agreeing a revised delivery profile for the helicopters – a milestone that was meant to have been reached this summer – alongside the submission for approval of a new financial profile for the acquisition, plus capability milestones, by year-end.

[Jensy]

You'd almost think there was a major UK defence show next week...

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/helico ... wn-heroes/

[mrclark303]

Lockheed touts ‘incredible export opportunities’ for UK linked to NMH bid


Long story short, full details will be released next week at DSEI.

https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/lo ... mpaign=RSS

Lockheed Martin insists that a selection of its Sikorsky S-70M Black Hawk by the UK for its New Medium Helicopter (NMH) competition would open up “incredible export opportunities” for the country, as the airframer prepares to disclose how it will address the social value requirements of the contest.

Although Sikorsky has long been clear on the identity of its NMH contender aircraft, there has been little visibility on how it would build the helicopter in the UK, especially given an existing European assembly line for the S-70 at its PZL Mielec subsidiary in Poland.

Poland of course now has an assembly line for both Blackhawk and AW149.... which at varying points over the last 30+ years we've managed to reject both of... Yet apparently (according to LockMart's marketing/governmental bribery division) somehow the S-70 will be the "most British" in the NMH competition.

Describing the Black Hawk as the “perfect utility helicopter” for the NMH requirement, he says the company will reveal “how our team of UK industry partners” will deliver Black Hawks for the UK as well as addressing “incredible export opportunities”, he says.

The level of UK industrial participation it is proposing is such that Sikorsky will bill the S-70 as the “most British helicopter” in the contest, FlightGlobal understands. Rivals Airbus Helicopters and Leonardo Helicopters are pitching their respective H175M and AW149 platforms, both of which would be built in the UK for the domestic and export markets.

Given the cost advantages of Sikorsky’s existing production line in Poland over whatever it creates in the UK, the airframer is likely to focus on the export potential of certain elements – such as mission systems or sustainment – rather than the bare airframe.

Interesting link to the Chinook shambles I've been whining about on the Wokka thread...

[The MoD] recently appointed a procurement official to lead the effort, in early August confirming Commodore Jolyon Woodard as senior responsible owner (SRO) for the NMH programme until October 2024; he has held the post on an interim basis since October 2021.

Separately, Woodard has also been appointed as SRO for the MoD’s Chinook Capability Sustainment Programme, which is seeking to acquire 14 examples of the extended-range variant of Boeing’s heavy-lifter, widely tipped to be the MH-47G model operated by US special forces. In turn, the Royal Air Force will retire the oldest Chinooks in its fleet.

Woodard’s tasks include agreeing a revised delivery profile for the helicopters – a milestone that was meant to have been reached this summer – alongside the submission for approval of a new financial profile for the acquisition, plus capability milestones, by year-end.

They are wasting their time, the lessons never get learnt.

S70, fully developed, available as Spec ops version, designed to actually take battle damage...

Number needed, about 40.

We will be buying (a quite pointless 25) extraordinarily expensive Leonardo helicopters from 'the home of Italian Helicopters' Yeovil. Only 25, as this is the amount of gold plated 149's we can afford for the budget.

As ever, the powers that be are determined that we get absolutely f**k all for our money....

[Repulse]

Separately, Woodard has also been appointed as SRO for the MoD’s Chinook Capability Sustainment Programme, which is seeking to acquire 14 examples of the extended-range variant of Boeing’s heavy-lifter, widely tipped to be the MH-47G model operated by US special forces. In turn, the Royal Air Force will retire the oldest Chinooks in its fleet.

Woodard’s tasks include agreeing a revised delivery profile for the helicopters – a milestone that was meant to have been reached this summer – alongside the submission for approval of a new financial profile for the acquisition, plus capability milestones, by year-end.

They are wasting their time, the lessons never get learnt.
...

Number needed, about 40.

We will be buying (a quite pointless 25) extraordinarily expensive Leonardo helicopters from 'the home of Italian Helicopters' Yeovil. Only 25, as this is the amount of gold plated 149's we can afford for the budget.

As ever, the powers that be are determined that we get absolutely f**k all for our money....

Perhaps a joined up thought too far, but linking this up with the discussion on the Amphibious thread - why not take the budget from MRSS (I estimate £1.5bn) and use it to buy a £1/2bn Aviation Support Ship/LPH for the RMs and spend the rest on doubling the NMH budget on something that can operate at sea and on land.

[Jensy]

They are wasting their time, the lessons never get learnt.

S70, fully developed, available as Spec ops version, designed to actually take battle damage...

Number needed, about 40.

We will be buying (a quite pointless 25) extraordinarily expensive Leonardo helicopters from 'the home of Italian Helicopters' Yeovil. Only 25, as this is the amount of gold plated 149's we can afford for the budget.

As ever, the powers that be are determined that we get absolutely f**k all for our money....

Agreed.

The programme, back when Wallace announced the 2021 'Defence in a competitive age' NMH had two central aims:

- Consolidate Dauphin/Griffin/Puma/Bell-212 to a single platform to avoid small, inefficient fleets

- Deliver the platform quickly to save further expensive updates to Puma.

Well, we seem to have failed on both.

Meanwhile, on 'Team AW149' (which I'm determined to get named Lysander, should it win), Leonardo have pushed the boat out with their marketing videos:

https://uk.leonardo.com/en/helicopters

...which if I were being frank makes a nice change from their usual begging for money "to save Yeovil" only to invest in Italy approach.

[mrclark303]

They are wasting their time, the lessons never get learnt.

S70, fully developed, available as Spec ops version, designed to actually take battle damage...

Number needed, about 40.

We will be buying (a quite pointless 25) extraordinarily expensive Leonardo helicopters from 'the home of Italian Helicopters' Yeovil. Only 25, as this is the amount of gold plated 149's we can afford for the budget.

As ever, the powers that be are determined that we get absolutely f**k all for our money....

Agreed.

The programme, back when Wallace announced the 2021 'Defence in a competitive age' NMH had two central aims:

- Consolidate Dauphin/Griffin/Puma/Bell-212 to a single platform to avoid small, inefficient fleets

- Deliver the platform quickly to save further expensive updates to Puma.

Well, we seem to have failed on both.

Meanwhile, on 'Team AW149' (which I'm determined to get named Lysander, should it win), Leonardo have pushed the boat out with their marketing videos:

https://uk.leonardo.com/en/helicopters

...which if I were being frank makes a nice change from their usual begging for money "to save Yeovil" only to invest in Italy approach.

This is hilarious re the battlefield Wildcat, tongue rather firmly in cheek!

Protection and escort ( with two door guns)
Righto.... Let's see how that works out....

Targeting for fires and support, what with, It's flir? binoculars? Being shot at and trying to figure out where from??

Cabin space is bigger than the zero cabin space of an attack helicopter!

Well it's factually correct I guess......

You couldn't make this crap up, or you apparently can🫣

"The AW159 is capable of performing Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (ARH) operations: Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance (ISTAR), Command and Control (C2), Troop / Specialist Team Insertion, Combined Air Operations (COMAO) Protection / Escort, Targeting for ‘Fires’ and Fire Support / Threat Suppression. Additional roles include Medical Evacuation (MEDEVAC), Search and Rescue (SAR) and Logistics Support.
Available cabin space provides additional operational flexibility, than normally afforded by dedicated Attack Platforms, with option to equip the helicopter with auxiliary fuel tanks without compromising weapon carriage. It also enables secondary role capability such as movement of specialist teams and materiel. "

[Jensy]

Definitely not Westland:

Assuming it's the same AW149 'prototype' (AW189 in drag) they've given it a green paint job and covered up the Italian registration code.






Meanwhile, on the Sikorsky/LockMart stand:





With only 600 jobs I can't imagine there's going to be much 'assembly' involved, but still better than the initially proposed offer to build in Poland.

Using the old Vector Aerospace site in Fleetlands, next to Gosport Heliport. Doesn't hurt that it's (/was) a fairly safe Tory seat...

[Poiuytrewq]

With only 600 jobs I can't imagine there's going to be much 'assembly' involved, but still better than the initially proposed offer to build in Poland.

Why not just assemble Blackhawk under licence at Yeovil?

[Poiuytrewq]

With only 600 jobs I can't imagine there's going to be much 'assembly' involved, but still better than the initially proposed offer to build in Poland.

Why not just assemble Blackhawk under licence at Yeovil?

Times have changed and Leonardo sees itself as an end-to-end helicopter manufacturer (as they wax lyrical about in one of the above promotional videos). As such they have no interest in license building Sikorsky products, as their predecessor companies did so successfully...

The AW149 has been promoted as a Black Hawk competitor since it was conceived, would be about the worst marketing signal they could send to start assembling the competing product.

[shark bait]

Black Hawk feels like the correct option.

It's either an Italian helicopter assembled in the UK, or an American helicopter assembled in the UK. The American one has a massive user base and shares the same engine as Apache, making it the smarter choice.

[shark bait]

Also, I'd do one step further, ditching Apache and doubling the Black Hawk order with this angry looking variant.

[Poiuytrewq]

The AW149 has been promoted as a Black Hawk competitor since it was conceived, would be about the worst marketing signal they could send to start assembling the competing product.

Understandable. Seems like a bit of a dilemma, probably why it’s been kicked into the long grass.

The SF Chinook debacle looks to be the cause of the lack of funding for the NMH programme. Solve that prickly problem as the rest may just sort itself.

A 75x Blackhawk order, assembled in the UK may paper over the cracks after reducing the order to 6x SF Chinooks. Leonardo would then have two options. To build or not to build.

A combined budget of £3.3bn should be enough to sort it out unless the NMH funding is being used to cover the bill for the Chinooks in which case there is only £2.2bn of funding available.

It’s time for ruthless prioritisation to end the procrastination.

[SW1]

Airbus too are offering design manufacture assembly integration and test in the U.K. with same cockpit systems that the people use on the training aircraft.

Are Lockheed offering the ability to integrate and test in the U.K.?

I also see in the marketing blurb they proposing it’s a way into there future rotorcraft a/c that the US military has rejected so that probably as dead as dodo.

There was also a need be able to move a team
of 12 about wonder if that will remain.

[new guy]