National Flagship for Britain

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
Caribbean
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by Caribbean »

RunningStrong wrote: "In its latest announcement the go
RunningStrong wrote:It would be great to actually stick to facts. Boris hasn't promised any more money to build them, they are still planning phase.

https://fullfact.org/health/six-hospitals-not-forty/

"In its latest announcement the government has committed the money to upgrade six hospitals by 2025. Up to 38 other hospitals have received money to plan for building work between 2025 and 2030, but not to actually begin any work."
So, exactly as I said, as I said " the initial cash was to provide money to start the design and planning process for hospitals not expected to start construction before 2025". Not surprising really, as I based my comment on the Fullfact entry.

Take time to read and inwardly digest, before posting stuff that makes you look foolish.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

SD67
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by SD67 »

This is getting a little silly. It's a 200£ million asset that will last at least 30 years. So the finance cost is about 10-15 million a year given the government borrows at 1%. I'm guessing similar annual operating costs.

To put that in perspective, the government spent 125£ million on a "Great Britain" global marketing campaign that lasted less than 12 months and will probably be forgotten soon after. They spent 15£ million on renovations to the Ambassador's residence in Manhattan. Even conference centres are not cheap, once the security detail, the hotel bill, the flights in and out are locked in.

And I don't buy the idea that it would have no military/security value ever. Some Diplomatic staff or VIPs need to be evacuated out of a hotspot without being seen to escalate then it might be quite useful.

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RichardIC
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

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SD67 wrote:This is getting a little silly. It's a 200£ million asset that will last at least 30 years. So the finance cost is about 10-15 million a year given the government borrows at 1%. I'm guessing similar annual operating costs.
It's more than silly, it's absurd. You don't pay for ships on the never-never. The £200 million will need to be found from the MoD equipment budget which is less stretched than it was due to last November's five-year settlement but is still probably significantly overdrawn.

We had a Defence Command Paper produced in March this year which made absolutely no mention of a National Flagship so there's no money in the existing equipment budget. So £200 million on a mid-rank superyacht is £200 million that can't be spent on something else.

Back in March MROSS, something for which there is a legitimate operational requirement, was being hailed and described in the Sunday Times (behind a paywall) as a priority that the Government would be pursuing within weeks. That's gone quiet. Maybe it's morphed into a gin palace for which there's no operational requirement.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... astructure

And we simply have no clue what the operating costs will be so there's no point in guessing.
SD67 wrote:the government spent 125£ million on a "Great Britain" global marketing campaign that lasted less than 12 months and will probably be forgotten soon after.
Are you trying to justify pouring £200 million of the defence budget down the drain by pointing to the fact that there have been greater wastes of money, so what the heck? Really? No, I won't lend you a tenner.
SD67 wrote:And I don't buy the idea that it would have no military/security value ever. Some Diplomatic staff or VIPs need to be evacuated out of a hotspot without being seen to escalate then it might be quite useful.
Ben Wallace was questioned about the National Flagship in Defence Select Committee last week and he made no attempt to justify the money coming from the budget because it would have any defence or security value. He did mumble that it could be used as a training vessel. Other than that nothing. So if you have some insider knowledge please share it with the Secretary of State for Defence.

And if you want to evacuate diplomatic staff in an emergency you send the nearest grey ship or you ask an ally to do it for you. It's as simple as that. You don't send a daft yacht from the other side of the world on the pretext that it won't "escalate" anything. If you need to evacuate diplomats from a hotspot it's already pretty escalated and you're not going to wait for Boris's boat.

jonas
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by jonas »

MOD Prior information notice for contract design :-

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2021/W26/753992184

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RichardIC
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by RichardIC »

jonas wrote:MOD Prior information notice for contract design :-
Main takes:

-> Competition open to overseas designs
-> Build to start next year! Compare and contrast to programmes where there is an actual operational need
-> No mention of secondary HADR/hospital or any other role

And BTW Ron. Somebody who has posted five and a half thousand times on a site dedicated to the armed forces of a nation which they seem to hold in disdain doesn't get to call anyone obsessive.

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Re: National Flagship for Britain

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RichardIC
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by RichardIC »

Just a reminder that the UK already has a National Flagship to promote trade. It's called HMS Queen Elizabeth.

How carrier strike deployment is flying the flag for UK trade
With the Royal Navy’s Carrier Strike Group 21 deployment now set to enter its Indo-Pacific-region phase, the UK will be using the activity to strengthen both its military and trade relations with existing allies and potential new partners.
https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ho ... 66.article

This impresses people. A mid-sized gin palace without royal endorsement won't.

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RichardIC
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by RichardIC »

The tender has now been issued for the design phase. This knocks on the head any notion of secondary roles as a hospital ship or humanitarian aid vessel or anything else. Because if that’s what you wanted this is where it would be specified.

The budget’s also been cut to £150 million from the previous £200 million and in-service has slipped to third quarter of 2025.

So absolutely of no military utility. A smallish cruise vessel that will be utterly underwhelming on the world stage.

https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/ ... esults&p=1

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Jensy
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by Jensy »

RichardIC wrote: The budget’s also been cut to £150 million from the previous £200 million and in-service has slipped to third quarter of 2025.
Is there any indication of whether the £50m which was bequeathed for a 'Royal Yacht' had ever been factored into this... Or has it gotten lost somewhere in the Treasury?

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RichardIC
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

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Jensy wrote:Is there any indication of whether the £50m which was bequeathed for a 'Royal Yacht' had ever been factored into this... Or has it gotten lost somewhere in the Treasury?
Is this real or is it an urban myth? I have no idea. Is there any evidence?

Either way the new "national flagship" won't be a royal yacht and presumably the executor wouldn't release it.

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Jensy
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by Jensy »

RichardIC wrote: Is this real or is it an urban myth? I have no idea. Is there any evidence?
The Times (£)
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir- ... -k26lhs5pz
Senior members of the royal family gathered to pay tribute to Sir Donald Gosling as it emerged that he reportedly left £50 million in his will to pay for a royal yacht.

The Prince of Wales, the Duchess of Cornwall and the Duke of Cambridge, along with the Earl and Countess of Wessex and Prince Michael of Kent, attended a service of thanksgiving in Westminster Abbey yesterday.
I doubt either his will, or HMT receipts are going to be public domain. Perhaps a FoI might give a vague clue of whether "reportedly" has any substance to it, and what exactly its specified use was.

Beyond that, my only interests in this topic are how much it will cost the taxpayer in the short term; the RN/MoD in the medium and long terms, and what tangible benefits can be brought for British shipbuilding.

As for exhibiting Britain globally, some of us still remember the Millennium Dome.

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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by Ron5 »

Gosh I wonder what our Richard will think of this ..

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... day-speech

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RichardIC
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

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Ron5 wrote:Gosh I wonder what our Richard will think of this ..
You can guess. Price has gone up again.

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Re: National Flagship for Britain

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RichardIC wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Gosh I wonder what our Richard will think of this ..
You can guess. Price has gone up again.
So same price as a Type 31. Says more about the type 31 than the yacht :lol:

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Tempest414
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by Tempest414 »

why we can now workout the ship its self will be 150 million and all the toys and Gin bar for Boris and co will come to 100 million

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SKB
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

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(Ministry Of Defence) 28th July 2021
(Starts at 19m 50s)
Announcement of the build competition for the new National Flagship, from the Painted Hall of the Old Royal Naval College, Greenwich.

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RichardIC
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by RichardIC »



Excellent thread on how the Government is paying £75 million to a travel agent in Bradford for what is in effect a private jet for the Prime Minister.

What’s this got to do with the National Flagship? If it isn’t obvious, it’s because it carries the same DNA. This is another Boris Johnson vanity project.

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Tempest414
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by Tempest414 »

And this is why the boys and girls at Titan were told to keep there mouth shut not that Titan have done anything wrong

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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by Ron5 »

RichardIC wrote:

Excellent thread on how the Government is paying £75 million to a travel agent in Bradford for what is in effect a private jet for the Prime Minister.

What’s this got to do with the National Flagship? If it isn’t obvious, it’s because it carries the same DNA. This is another Boris Johnson vanity project.
So you really are suggesting Boris will use this jet to fly to the national yacht for personal vacations.

Yikes.

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RichardIC
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by RichardIC »

Ron5 wrote:So you really are suggesting Boris will use this jet to fly to the national yacht for personal vacations.
No I'm not and you know I'm not. Stop being silly.

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Re: National Flagship for Britain

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RichardIC wrote:
Ron5 wrote:So you really are suggesting Boris will use this jet to fly to the national yacht for personal vacations.
No I'm not and you know I'm not. Stop being silly.
Then perhaps you could tell us all what do you mean by saying the aircraft is Boris' private jet and the ship is Boris' vanity project.

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RichardIC
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by RichardIC »

Ron5 wrote:Then perhaps you could tell us all what do you mean by saying the aircraft is Boris' private jet and the ship is Boris' vanity project.
ReAd tHe WorDs tHaT i wRoTe.

And stop putting your own spin on them [edited after a moment of introspection].

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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by Scimitar54 »

RichardIC Wrote:
What’s this got to do with the National Flagship? If it isn’t obvious, it’s because it carries the same DNA. This is another Boris Johnson vanity project.
I think that you will find that it was actually a David Cameron Vanity Project. :mrgreen:

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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by Ron5 »

RichardIC wrote:
Ron5 wrote:Then perhaps you could tell us all what do you mean by saying the aircraft is Boris' private jet and the ship is Boris' vanity project.
ReAd tHe WorDs tHaT i wRoTe.

And stop putting your own spin on them [edited after a moment of introspection].
I did that's why I asked the question. I know what a private yacht is and I know what they are used for, I live in Florida there's a lot of them here. None owned by the government that I'm aware of. Or in any other state. I'm just not sure you know what they are.

As for vanity project, I have a very hard time understanding why anyone who thinks that buying an aircraft for VIP use makes the head of government vain. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Especially Boris. He looks like a sack of potatoes with a bad wig. Vain is the last description I would give him.

Don't bother answering, I suspect you are just using leftie code phrases to turn government decisions into personal attacks on Boris. A bit feeble but it happens everywhere I suppose. And it's politics which has no place here.

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RichardIC
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Re: National Flagship for Britain

Post by RichardIC »

Ron5 wrote:I suspect you are just using leftie code phrases
That's the second time in recent weeks I've been called a leftie by an alt-right troll. I'm a former member of the Tory party and still on the centre right.
Ron5 wrote:And it's politics which has no place here.
Where, Florida? Fine. No plans to visit. Memories of it are flat as feck, massive bugs, horribly humid.

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