Turkish Armed Forces

News and discussion threads on defence in other parts of the world.
User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote:Don't go quoting Iraq, more Iraqis have been killed by other Iraqis than by western forces by a very substantial margin, in fact that goes for any country the West has intervened in the locals seem far better at killing each other than the UN/NATO forces as they have no ROE to follow. How many bombs have gone off in Market or Schools. How many civilians have been killed or maimed by IEDs or publicly executed for having a different belief than those that control where they live at any given time.

Yes UAV strikes have killed civilians and each time it has been investigated. A wedding was hit buy intel showed HVTs arriving at the venue so they were using the wedding as a cover. That is also classed as a war crime but you can bet no one on the other side was held to account.

I agree that how the Kurds were treated by the West especially the USA after they had been a major factor in defeating ISIS and forcing it to disperse, but Turkey jumped at the opportunity to occupy a substantial area of northern Iraq and Syria where the population was mainly Kurdish, and then wonder why these people, not the PKK decided to fight back, but of course any Kurd who fires at Turkish forces has to be a member of the PKK and so can be countered by the full weight of the Turkish Military, even though the latter doesn't seem to know how to use tanks given the number of Leopard 2s that were initially lost against Militia with only a few heavy weapons either captured or given to them by the US to fight ISIS.

As far as Israel goes, in Gaza they are responding to the launching of now thousands of missiles aimed at civilian targets. Hamas uses its population as human shields, and this means civilian casualties in Gaza are unavoidable. Israel warns civilians if an area is going to be attacked but sometimes Hamas deliberately hinders the civilians. If you live next to a sleeping bear you do not poke it with a sharp stick and not expect to be mauled by a bigger beast.

Regarding the West Bank, that is just an impossible situation that will never be resolved, though Israel is certainly making it worse by evicting Palestinians to make way for Israeli families. Jerusalem will never be the capital of a Palestinian state, Israel will simply not allow it. Maybe the Mosque, Wailing Wall and other religious sites should be put under UN control with all allowed to visit and pray creating a bubble, but Israel is going to obtain the control of the majority of the city as long as its powerful ally the USA does not stop them.

The main surprise and worry to Israel is the actions of the Israeli citizen who are Arab Palestinians. They are fully integrated into many settlements living side by side with Jewish Israelis, and trying to separate the various parties is almost impossible without destroying the communities totally.

Back to Gaza, as long as Hamas is in charge the citizens are going to suffer. Millions in aid has been diverted to equip its forces yet its propaganda repeated blames all the woes of Gaza on Israel. If Hamas terrorists infiltrate Israel by pretending to be workers then Israel has a right to close the border. Egypt has done the same many times. But the people of Gaza have no hope of replacing Hamas as it has total control over every facet of their lives.

Finally the majority of Palestinians who left Israel in the 1949 war were not driven out by Jews but left on the instruction of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, as they were told the Jews would be soon crushed and they would be able to return home. Unfortunately for them it didn't turn out that way.
Be careful here there has been a lot of shit going on for a long time Israel has done plenty of shit over the years one of my other half's friends worked as a high ranking UN officer in Palestine and record and saw for her self children shoot dead just walking to school by Isreali soldiers

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

Oh I am well aware that Israel is no angelic state, just look at the later end of Operation Peace for Galilee in 1982. I get a bit annoyed though when the Palestinians in Gaza or more rightly Hamas use their civilians as shields, for which their population thank them, and then blame Israel when some are killed by a targeted airstrike. There will be no peace until Hamas are gone, I cannot see Israel accepting them as a legitimate partner.

Any way back to what new gizmos Turkey has developed and what it wants to do.

MammaLiTurchi
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 13 Mar 2020, 13:28
Turkey

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by MammaLiTurchi »

The Turkish Leopards you mention were taken out by MILAN and TOW ATGMs.

Well, it is not far fetched to think PKK might have used these weapons given for destroying ISIS VBIEDs and stolen armor. But here is the thing,

They managed to fire STINGER to a T129 helicopter.

This clearly shows US aspirations were not limited to defeating ISIS. They are known for their support for PKK, with many others. Actually, CIA field operatives were on scene when PKK unleashed urban terror on local citizens and government. Pretty much what Hamas does with Palestinians.

Another irony is PKK is a communist organization.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

The majority of the Kurds who have fought against the Turkish occupation of their territory in northern Syria and Iraq were not PKK. Yes some of the weapons delivered to the indigenous Kurdish Militia in Northern Syria and Iraq may have found their way into the hands on the PKK but so did far more Russian and Chinese and Western hardware given to the Syrian and Iraqi Military. As for unleashing terror on their own people or those under the previous control of ISIS, well I haven't seen any evidence of that but you are welcome to provide any neutral evidence that exists rather than from either side involved. I am sure during urban operations against ISIS, civilians were affected, but that is always the case with such operations and it is not a terror campaign. Of course US and other nations SF would be involved, it is they who co-ordinate CAS for he indigenous forces amongst other things.

Any old how can we gat back to talking about the large amount of new equipment Turkish Industry seems to be able to produce now which is the result of quite an impressive programme of building up level of technology available to it.

MammaLiTurchi
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 13 Mar 2020, 13:28
Turkey

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by MammaLiTurchi »

https://tr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendek_ ... nlar%C4%B1

This is a Turkish Wikipedia link to one of the most extreme violence from PKK, unleashed in 2015. Unfortunately there is no English language page but surely you can use translation.

At that time, my cousin was a civilian government officer. His home was hit by a rocket, and one ouf the outer walls collapsed. Fortunately he and his wife and children were in the other side of the apartment.

PKK and YPG (Syrian PKK) are actually the same organization. They are under Kurdistan Workers' Congress, which a socialist/communist congress aiming to control and establish a communist regime in parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdist ... ties_Union

In 2015, they had underground tunnels connecting Nusaybin, Turkey to Qamishli, Syria and transfer of arms were crazy. It was so crazy that they could suppress armored police with heavy explosive rockets and army forces had to intervene.



This footage is from Nusaybin. Where the PKK tunnels coming from Syria leads to. Many police officers and army members got killed, heavily injured (amputations mostly) or had psyschological effects on them.

Another difficulty was that civilian apartments were occupied by PKK militants and they turned these apartments into trenches or trap staging areas. Thousands of IEDs were defused. (Mostly CIA supplied. Instead of nitrate mixes, highly efficient RDX mixes were also found)

My sister is pharmacist and her collage friend married with a Kurd from Van. They were residing in Van and she said to my sister that PKK was forcefully taking pills and valuable neurochemicals (i.e. drug substitutes) from her pharmacy during those dark days. Refusal meant obliteration by militants.

After deterrent operations, PKK cleaned out of Turkey. Before 2015, socialists and communists favored PKK supported HDP and got their votes up to %10, however, this terror caused locals and other Turks to leave HDP and crushed it below %6.

Today, this political party still remains official in Turkey (though clearly violated Turkish laws and promoted terrorism) and in the assembly. They have internal opposition to PKK, however they are immediately passificized.



There are many such attacks by PKK, but I will add just one of them to show how cruel these terrorists are.

This is what US wants to see. Israel has right to defend itself, but Turkey does not.

This is the Western double standards we hate, that is why dependence on Western "allies" is not wanted. NATO allies turn our cities into rubble, after all.

Turkey never supplied bombs to European terrorists. Even warned Western agencies for suspicious individuals. And this was the kind answer we got.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

MammaLiTurchi wrote:PKK and YPG (Syrian PKK) are actually the same organization.
They strongly deny this and the non Kurdish fighter who joined the YPG to fight ISIS also state this. Anyhow now to a video showing all the toys and gismos the Turkish Armed forces have and it is quite impressive.

MammaLiTurchi
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 13 Mar 2020, 13:28
Turkey

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by MammaLiTurchi »

Lord Jim wrote:
MammaLiTurchi wrote:PKK and YPG (Syrian PKK) are actually the same organization.
They strongly deny this and the non Kurdish fighter who joined the YPG to fight ISIS also state this.


Ok, you may not believe me since I am Turkish. But an American senator and MoD may change your mind.

Or, may not. Since YPG was just an undercover to arm PKK anyway.

Gtal
Member
Posts: 93
Joined: 31 Dec 2018, 19:55
Germany

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by Gtal »

Warning: Rant!

It's really sad seeing Turkey going into a Willkommen bei Gboard! Texte, die Sie kopieren, werden hier gespeichert. like this. It's been building up for a while now so it's not a surprise, but damn, do the reaalllyyyy need to get rid of Erdogan!
He's totally on that Powertrip now, he is the law; he is the nation!
Distinguished journalists from Europe, but with turkish passports, jailed on a whim with no due process, no certainty, no transparency.
Erdogans Bodyguards brutalizing protesters in Washington.
Literally rerunning an election because the opposition won.
Not to mention the endless waves of political and official arrests following the apparent coup, that still continue to this day.
Turkey was so eager to present evidence on Saudi crimes to the international community, but now roundly fails to provide basic due process, transparency, separation of powers or checks and balances even while requesting law enforcement cooperation and potential extraditions.

You want to know why Turkey is acting so defiantly towards US and EU and leaning on hard power in it's neighborhood?

Because Erdogan wants to live out some "Great Statesmen" moments and this is the only way he can do it.
Turkeys trade policy is pretty much under the control of the EU, has been for a long time and it was very beneficial to Turkey as a whole in term of QoL, education etc. and then also Erdogan himself who reaped the glory for it domestically.
But over time Turkey became more involved in european trade and scientific cooperation etc as a junior Partner because it never got close to full membership.
This situation highly restricts the ability of Turkey to develop it's own trade and industrial strategies and limits potentially other smaller but more self-controlled frameworks in science and education.
This is a genuine dilemma and if Turkey were to end the arrangements with the EU this requires a collective effort by many highly capable people over many years to redesign and rebuild.
Erdogan and his crowd of yes-men are simply not able to execute such a strategy even if someone else were to provide it.
However the resulting limitations on Turkeys ability to sign agreements and develop schemes independently in ever increasing areas make El Presidente feel increasingly impotent and so he tries to compensate his ego with ever bigger toys instead of focusing on policy at home.
If Turkey wants to move forward, one way or another, Erdogan needs to go, followed by institutional and constitutional reforms and just a total policy reset.

The Kurds are like the Irish in the troubles, targeted and oppressed for centuries purely for religious and nationalistic reasons. And yet it's almost even worse now, with Erdogan basically using the PKK as a tool for domestic distraction and posturing, just like all the "spats" with all of it's neighbours(almost). It's all about the regimes grip on power.

A true statesmen would have long realized the need to find a settlement through genuine humility, compassion and taking responsibility for historic wrongs.
Just like John Major did in Northern Ireland in the 90s.

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7931
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
England

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by SKB »

And the EU wants Turkey as a new member state, even though 97% of it is both geographically and geologically in Asia....

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Tuvalu

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by Pseudo »

SKB wrote:And the EU wants Turkey as a new member state, even though 97% of it is both geographically and geologically in Asia....
I think that given that the most prominent member state advocating Turkish accession has left the EU the whole thing is pretty much dead in the water.

Though it wasn't going anywhere anyway. There was almost no progress made in a dozen years of negotiations.

MammaLiTurchi
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 13 Mar 2020, 13:28
Turkey

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by MammaLiTurchi »

Gtal wrote:Warning: Rant!

It's really sad seeing Turkey going into a Willkommen bei Gboard! Texte, die Sie kopieren, werden hier gespeichert. like this. It's been building up for a while now so it's not a surprise, but damn, do the reaalllyyyy need to get rid of Erdogan!
He's totally on that Powertrip now, he is the law; he is the nation!
Distinguished journalists from Europe, but with turkish passports, jailed on a whim with no due process, no certainty, no transparency.
Erdogans Bodyguards brutalizing protesters in Washington.
Literally rerunning an election because the opposition won.
Not to mention the endless waves of political and official arrests following the apparent coup, that still continue to this day.
Turkey was so eager to present evidence on Saudi crimes to the international community, but now roundly fails to provide basic due process, transparency, separation of powers or checks and balances even while requesting law enforcement cooperation and potential extraditions.

You want to know why Turkey is acting so defiantly towards US and EU and leaning on hard power in it's neighborhood?

Because Erdogan wants to live out some "Great Statesmen" moments and this is the only way he can do it.
Turkeys trade policy is pretty much under the control of the EU, has been for a long time and it was very beneficial to Turkey as a whole in term of QoL, education etc. and then also Erdogan himself who reaped the glory for it domestically.
But over time Turkey became more involved in european trade and scientific cooperation etc as a junior Partner because it never got close to full membership.
This situation highly restricts the ability of Turkey to develop it's own trade and industrial strategies and limits potentially other smaller but more self-controlled frameworks in science and education.
This is a genuine dilemma and if Turkey were to end the arrangements with the EU this requires a collective effort by many highly capable people over many years to redesign and rebuild.
Erdogan and his crowd of yes-men are simply not able to execute such a strategy even if someone else were to provide it.
However the resulting limitations on Turkeys ability to sign agreements and develop schemes independently in ever increasing areas make El Presidente feel increasingly impotent and so he tries to compensate his ego with ever bigger toys instead of focusing on policy at home.
If Turkey wants to move forward, one way or another, Erdogan needs to go, followed by institutional and constitutional reforms and just a total policy reset.

The Kurds are like the Irish in the troubles, targeted and oppressed for centuries purely for religious and nationalistic reasons. And yet it's almost even worse now, with Erdogan basically using the PKK as a tool for domestic distraction and posturing, just like all the "spats" with all of it's neighbours(almost). It's all about the regimes grip on power.

A true statesmen would have long realized the need to find a settlement through genuine humility, compassion and taking responsibility for historic wrongs.
Just like John Major did in Northern Ireland in the 90s.
Parts about Erdogan are mostly true with some nuances, and you got the shot regarding EU-Turkish relations.

First of all, Turkish internal political environment always favored main stream policy makers, and not hard liners. This was because hard liners always meant trouble for Turkey.

However, a big however,

Turkish elite with close ties to West, had little to no knowledge of an average Turkish citizen. These elites run the country up until 2000s, and no matter who wins the elections, these elite run the bureaucracy, foreign relations, and economy. Their rule though, were mainly driven by strict Kemalism. Kemalism is an ideology that aims to transform Turkey into a completely Western society, including culture and even a twisted "westernized" history. This was the way Turkey followed under Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, founder of the Turkish Republic. However, it turned into a bizarre cult in no time. If scientism were a religion, Mustafa Kemal would be its prophet, and Kemalism would be its principles.

In between 1930s to 2000s, Kemalism pushed hard on any religious activity, anyone and anything with links to old culture was deemed archaical. It was a complete wipeout. Even wearing military medals from Ottoman era was prohobited. WW1 veterans could not wear their medals.

New republic was found on completely nationalistic, secular, and "pure" Turkishness. This got two important reactions:

-Kurds, nominally were in good terms with conservative Turks got radicalized.
-Conservative Turks got radicalized.

Everywhere in the world, prohibition brings radicalism. Since political arena was highly Kemalist, Turkish people always favored politicians with mild tone. In 2002, Erdogan was the mildest.

By mild I mean democracy and stuff. (Kemalism is not democratic at all)

However, oppressed ones were in fact majority. They always sought to have a political opportunity to topple Kemalist hegemony. (Kemalists used to say, "you may be elected government, but may never govern")

Erdogan got its main support from US and EU, because he knew if he did not, internal Kemalist hegemony would topple him in no time. At the same time, he was known of his conservative background. It was a no-go for Kemalists.

Until 2010, Erdogan government continuously challenged by Kemalist military and bureaucracy, but he kept them in check and slowly purged them by, Gülenists.

Gülen is a Turkish "preacher" now residing in US. Long story short he is a CIA asset.

Gülenists were the main tool for US to seize Turkish institutions. And Erdogan actually let them. They were allied on the terms;

-Erdogan should remain in power
-Gülenists wipe out Kemalists.

They did so in between 2010-2013. Kemalist hegemony wiped out. It was a literal purge. But at these times US and EU was indeed supporting these purges. These purges were just as "unjust" as post coup purges.

But it was OK for EU and US. So they did nothing. (If there is one country knows western double standards, of course it is Turkey)

When Kemalists are gone, Erdogan had Gülenists at his crosshairs. Because he could not let them run the country. Because Erdogan wanted a strong Turkey leading pan-Turkic, pan-Islamic world. Kemalism was a passifist, secular ideology that is not interested in being a large power. Just like, guess what, Gülenism.

So, Gülenists realized Erdogan's aspirations and started their struggle. But there was a main problem. Gülenists were also conservative but conservative people liked Erdogan way more than Gülen.

Gülenist clique did many things but the pinnacle was 2016 coup attempt. After which both Kemalists and Erdoganists wiped out Gülenists.

Erdogan remained sole power. But problem was, majority of country's educated base were either Gülenist or Kemalist Erdoğan just purged (smiley was here) so Erdogan had very little capable statesmen.

Throughout these chaos, he did one thing though, he managed to set main waypoints to completely independent military-industrial complex. Since 2004, steadily but progressively, he kept defence industry on rise.

Erdogan is no angel. Actually he has lots of mistakes and unjust stuff done. But a foreigner must understand the internal dynamics of Turkey that kept him the way he is. Aligning Europe is cool and all, but at the same time, Turkish geo political interests clash with EU in Mediterranean, Cyprus and Middle East. Turkish Petroleum Company takes petroleum extraction rights in Libya, Somalia and Cyprus, with strong political and military backing of Turkey. Markets previously dominated by Total, ENI or Exxon now sees Turkish Petroleum as well. European bribes are offset by Turkish bribes and military backing. Especially France lost many opportunity in Libya because of this.

After all these, Turkish public opinion strictly opposes foreign backing. Erdogan is still powerful because he has no foreign backing. That is why although challenged, he has a strong support internally. (with strong opposition of course)

My opinion is, Turkey must have an independent alternative with strong emphasis on national interests, but less radicalized. By radical I do not mean Turkish foreign influence, but rather political rhetoric. Erdogans rhetoric is archaic in my opinion. But still, Turkish sphere of influence will have to grow bigger and bigger in order to feed Turkish economy.

UK did not lose much from this Turkish expansion, and maybe bacause of that reason UK does not see any problem in supporting Turkish 5th generation fighter programme, or does not apply a strict embargo like EU or US, but EU's markets, especially France's is now at danger.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

MammaLiTurchi wrote:When Kemalists are gone, Erdogan had Gülenists at his crosshairs. Because he could not let them run the country. Because Erdogan wanted a strong Turkey leading pan-Turkic, pan-Islamic world.
Every revolution eats its children.
And (in his mind) rebuilding the Sultanate is clearly the Big idea - betting the technological progress on the military industries is a quick shortcut (a la Putin), but as has been shown elsewhere, it does not (or does, very slowly) percolate to other industries. Thereby actually hurting productivity and holding development back.
Pan-Islamic is a slight miss as he is posing as "the" statesman for Sunnis in that wider region.
Oil (AND gas even more so) will be a flash point. Egypt also sees itself as a leader of the Sunni world... not to mention the third contender - who you did mention.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

MammaLiTurchi
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 13 Mar 2020, 13:28
Turkey

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by MammaLiTurchi »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
MammaLiTurchi wrote:When Kemalists are gone, Erdogan had Gülenists at his crosshairs. Because he could not let them run the country. Because Erdogan wanted a strong Turkey leading pan-Turkic, pan-Islamic world.
Every revolution eats its children.
And (in his mind) rebuilding the Sultanate is clearly the Big idea - betting the technological progress on the military industries is a quick shortcut (a la Putin), but as has been shown elsewhere, it does not (or does, very slowly) percolate to other industries. Thereby actually hurting productivity and holding development back.
Pan-Islamic is a slight miss as he is posing as "the" statesman for Sunnis in that wider region.
Oil (AND gas even more so) will be a flash point. Egypt also sees itself as a leader of the Sunni world... not to mention the third contender - who you did mention.
You are absolutely right. Just because of this reason, Turkish officials realized civilian projects and market also eat up big sums of GDP, so they work on rather joint approach on industry, i.e. civilian-military.

For example, Aselsan, military electronics company, also heavily invests in electric trains, healthcare equipment and city management systems.

It is a long way to go. Turkish industrial output is one sixth of Germany, a country with similar population of Turkey.

Long story short, $$$ are needed.

And that is exactly why Mediterranean will remain hot until the winner comes up.

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by Lord Jim »

But can Erdogan wait to see how things pan out of will he try to push things along and possibly make the whole situation worse. The race for natural Gas and oil is already dragging countries like Italy, Greece, Egypt and Israeli into competition in a very small piece of Sea and all are rapidly increasing their naval capabilities as well as those of their air forces. The situation is becoming flammable and where as many of the others have an understanding, where does Turkey stand in tis relationships with the others. As has been eloquently stated many of the historical checks and balances that would hold a Turkish President back form conducting any rash actions no longer exist, which allowed the occupation of northern Syria and Iraq and may cause issues at sea if Erdogan tries to be the big man on the block to appeal to his supported and other nations in the area. We shall have to wait and see how things turn out with our fingers crossed for a good outcome.

MammaLiTurchi
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 13 Mar 2020, 13:28
Turkey

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by MammaLiTurchi »

Lord Jim wrote:But can Erdogan wait to see how things pan out of will he try to push things along and possibly make the whole situation worse. The race for natural Gas and oil is already dragging countries like Italy, Greece, Egypt and Israeli into competition in a very small piece of Sea and all are rapidly increasing their naval capabilities as well as those of their air forces. The situation is becoming flammable and where as many of the others have an understanding, where does Turkey stand in tis relationships with the others. As has been eloquently stated many of the historical checks and balances that would hold a Turkish President back form conducting any rash actions no longer exist, which allowed the occupation of northern Syria and Iraq and may cause issues at sea if Erdogan tries to be the big man on the block to appeal to his supported and other nations in the area. We shall have to wait and see how things turn out with our fingers crossed for a good outcome.
EU understandibly stands with Greece. Italy is sceptical about a EU resolution that will make both France and Italy and other member states happy. Egypt is in fact not far away from Turkish thesis since it leaves more area to them but suspicious regarding Turkish success (and policies)

And UK is no longer EU member (in fact never truly was) so they do not take real sides till now but my guesstimate is that they would not like to see French overwhelming Mediterranean (and EU)

And there is another fact. Greek debt. Greece has no chance of paying more than 300B Euros of debt, unless capturing natural resources. But they know they cannot obtain this goal with military posture (Turkish Navy dominates their claimed areas) so instead they use French to involve.

Turkey has no appearent backing but what I see is UK is supporting Turkey under the hood. (Allison and BAE especially) not with direct military sales or support but taking over partnerships from former German and French defence companies over Turkish defence projects.

UK's incursion in Libya was another trail, UK Special Forces reportedly came in Libya with local military support from a *NATO ally in Libya* which could only refer to Turkey, as no other operational NATO boots were there. (I mean operational, active engagements. Italians were in Tripoli as well but they operated just next to Turkish operatives where they deem relative safety)

What I see is this pattern shows UK wants to offset EU (especially French) influence with local partners and increasingly tends to do so after Brexit.

Regarding Syria and Iraq, it was a must. You just need to live under terror risk to comprehend it.

If you had received daily mortars from Scotland, what would you do? (Plus assume Scotland government is dispersed)

Think of it as Golan heights of Turkey.

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
United Kingdom

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by RichardIC »

SKB wrote:And the EU wants Turkey as a new member state
This is, of course, untrue.

Turkey applied to join the EU in 1987 and 34 years later still isn't a member of the EU and is probably further away from becoming an EU member than it's ever been.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 2900
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15
United Kingdom

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by abc123 »

SKB wrote:And the EU wants Turkey as a new member state, even though 97% of it is both geographically and geologically in Asia....
Yeah, especially wanted by EU members like UK and USA. :wave:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

MammaLiTurchi
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 13 Mar 2020, 13:28
Turkey

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by MammaLiTurchi »

I am not sure if EU wants even EU to exist at all :lol:

MammaLiTurchi
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 13 Mar 2020, 13:28
Turkey

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by MammaLiTurchi »

Turkish military receives new Anka-S UAV configuration

TIA's unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) Anka on display during Teknofest at Istanbul Airport, Turkey, Sept. 20, 2018. (AFP Photo)
BY DAILY SABAHJUN 07, 2021 1:02 PM
The Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) recently added the next-generation Anka unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), based on the Anka-S unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) to its inventory, local defense news sites reported late Sunday.

Turkey-based defense industry news platform SavunmaSanayiST.com reported that manufacturer Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has so far delivered four of the newly-configured Anka-S drones, two of which have been allocated to the Turkish Naval Forces while the other two will be used by the country's air force.

In an interview with the news site, TAI UAV Systems vice chair, Ömer Yıldız, said the main difference between the new generation and the current Anka-S are in wings and wing profile.

The Anka-S UAV has a useful payload capacity of 250 kilograms and can stay in the air for up to 24 hours. With the new configuration, it can now carry up to 350 kilograms and stay in the air for up to 30 hours.

The company is also considering delivering the new Anka configuration to the Gendarmerie General Command.

Anka UAVs are capable of carrying four MAM-L smart micro munitions (MAM), developed by another Turkish defense industry company, Roketsan.

MAM is a laser-guided system produced for armed drones, light attack aircraft and fighter aircraft. MAM-L is thermobaric while the MAM-C is the high explosive variant. The biggest of the bunch, MAM-T, is used in long-range.

The latest version of the Anka drone is in active use with the TSK, Gendarmerie General Command and the National Intelligence Organization (MIT).

The UCAV has three different configurations: Anka-S, Anka-B and Anka-I.

The Anka-S configuration, with Beyond Line of Sight (BLOS) capabilities through satellite links, is being used by the TSK and the Gendarmerie units. The Anka-B configuration, which has Link Relay capabilities, is also used by the TSK and the Gendarmerie. The Anka-I, on the other hand, is operated by MIT and used in signal intelligence.


Comparison with MQ-1B Gray Eagle

Powerplant: Rotax 914F 4-cylinder air-cooled turbocharged horizontally-opposed piston engine, 115 hp (86 kW)

Propellers: 2-bladed constant-speed pusher propeller
Performance

Maximum speed: 117 kn (135 mph, 217 km/h)

Range: 675 nmi (777 mi, 1,250 km)

Endurance: 24 hours

Service ceiling: 25,000 ft (7,600 m)

Hardpoints: 2 with provisions to carry combinations of:
Missiles: 2 × AGM-114 Hellfire (MQ-1B)
4 × AIM-92 Stinger (MQ-1B)

Avionics

ASIP-1C
AN/AAS-52 Multi-Spectral Targeting System
AN/ZPQ-1 Synthetic Aperture Radar (early airframes only)


Anka NG

Powerplant: Tusaş Engine Industries PD170 4-cylinder liquid-cooled in-line turbo-charged diesel engine, 127 kW (170 hp)

Propellers: 3-bladed constant-speed propeller

Maximum speed: 217 km/h (135 mph, 117 kn)
Cruise speed: 204 km/h (127 mph, 110 kn)

Range: 1,448 km (900 mi, 782 nmi)

Combat range: 200 km (120 mi, 110 nmi) datalink range (Anka B), unlimited comms range with SATCOM (Anka S, Anka NG)

Endurance: 30 hours with 350 kg (772 lb) payload

Service ceiling: 9,144 m (30,000 ft)

Avionics

-Aselsan CATS FLIR
-Sarper SAR/GMTI, ISAR
-INS/GPS and air data sensor suite system
-Ctech DEV-KU-18 Mobile Satellite Communication Terminal

Armaments:
4x MAM-L (Smart Micro Munition) or
4x Roketsan Cirit

Meriv9
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: 05 Feb 2016, 00:19
Italy

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by Meriv9 »

Lord Jim wrote:But can Erdogan wait to see how things pan out of will he try to push things along and possibly make the whole situation worse. The race for natural Gas and oil is already dragging countries like Italy, Greece, Egypt and Israeli into competition in a very small piece of Sea and all are rapidly increasing their naval capabilities as well as those of their air forces. The situation is becoming flammable and where as many of the others have an understanding, where does Turkey stand in tis relationships with the others. As has been eloquently stated many of the historical checks and balances that would hold a Turkish President back form conducting any rash actions no longer exist, which allowed the occupation of northern Syria and Iraq and may cause issues at sea if Erdogan tries to be the big man on the block to appeal to his supported and other nations in the area. We shall have to wait and see how things turn out with our fingers crossed for a good outcome.
This read of the east Mediterranean situation is wrong.

You put Everyone against everyone.

And it isnt like this.
We are all happily collaborating.
This is Eastmed.
Image

In reality the situation for the Turks is becoming dire.

Italians discovered in Egypt a giant deposit Zohr
The field was discovered in 2015 by the Italian energy company Eni and is the largest ever natural gas find in the Mediterranean Sea, almost twice the size of the nearby Leviathan gas field.
Leviathan is the Israelian deposit and there is the Cyprus gas fields.

And we are going to build a Pipeline that is going to include Egypt/Israel/Cyprus/Greece/Italy
Also France has rights on the Cyprus gas fields so for this reason in the past has already sent FREMM to escort its prospecting fleet keeping at bay the Turks.
And Russia has also bought(we sold them probably as a security difersification) a significant size of the rights to Zohr.

So in the East Mediterranean, Erdogan is going against Israelian/Egypt/Cyprus/Greece/Italy/France/Russia combined interest.

Mussolini used to say "Tanti nemici tanto onore"
(Lots of enemies lots of honor, we saw how well it ended for him :D )

Erdogan is playing with fire in the East Med.

And the more time passes the more we are going to arm the Egyptians thanks to Saudi and Gas money (ITA/FRA FREMM, Rafales/EF, Ka-50 etc... Etc...), And the Greek fleet rennovate (they are getting 4 frigates).


P.s. Obviously interfering with Tel Aviv interests
also means having to deal with Israel Atlantic Big Bro...

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16312
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
United Kingdom

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Meriv9 wrote:we sold them probably as a security difersification) a significant size of the rights to Zohr.

So in the East Mediterranean, Erdogan is going against Israelian/Egypt/Cyprus/Greece/Italy/France/Russia combined interest.

Mussolini used to say "Tanti nemici tanto onore"
(Lots of enemies lots of honor, we saw how well it ended for him :D )

Erdogan is playing with fire in the East Med.

And the more time passes the more we are going to arm the Egyptians thanks to Saudi and Gas money
I think that is pretty accurate. For once there would be money for social development coming in (employment per se is fairly small in impact, from the very capital intensive industry),
but it is being squandered (or 'given away' to buy security) in having to prepare to deal with the 'bully boy' of the local block.
- not forgetting the three-way competition with more under currents between Turkey - Egypt&Saudi - Iran. Worthy of note that the half crest stretching from Iran to Tartus has by now been pretty much 'built' :( . Iraqis who sided with the gradual subjugation of their nation(s) by Iran, for tactical reasons, are already very much regretting it.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

MammaLiTurchi
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: 13 Mar 2020, 13:28
Turkey

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by MammaLiTurchi »

https://youtu.be/tuUFpWUK22o

Turkish Navy test fires first serial production Anti Ship Missile (AshM) Atmaca.

Atmaca AShM was under development since 2009, and finally entered into serial production in 2021.

It is widely considered as Harpoon Block 2+ equivalent, with 250 kilometers range and extensive jamming resistance.

From June 2021 onwards, Turkish Navy will be equipped with Atmaca AShMs.

Initially, Atmaca used French TRI40 Turbojet engine. However, Turkish made KTJ3200 Turbojet was in development phase at that time period.

In 2021, KTJ3200 engine is expected to enter serial production too, and hence Atmaca will switch to KTJ3200 from TRI40.

KTJ3200 is also planned to power Turkish Cruise Missile SOM.

User avatar
xav
Senior Member
Posts: 1626
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 22:48

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by xav »


Phil Sayers
Member
Posts: 365
Joined: 03 May 2015, 13:56

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by Phil Sayers »

Impossible to know whether this is Erdogan bluster or for real but if it is the latter it is big news:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turk ... es-erdogan

Defiance
Donator
Posts: 870
Joined: 07 Oct 2015, 20:52
United Kingdom

Re: Turkish Armed Forces

Post by Defiance »

Phil Sayers wrote:Impossible to know whether this is Erdogan bluster or for real but if it is the latter it is big news:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turk ... es-erdogan
Probably because he's also asking the US for their F-35 money back

https://www.defensenews.com/2021/09/30/ ... t-program/

Post Reply