Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

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RichardIC
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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by RichardIC »

Lord Jim wrote:At that price they are an absolute bargain for the capability they provide and there is no real alternative except paying a lot more when you actually need to move stuff on an individual basis and even then such contracts will probably limit how near the ships can get to the shooting so you might have to unload a considerable distance from where the stuff in actually going to.
Don't know whether they a bargain or not. I've never had to spot-charter a merchant vessel and I suspect no-one else on this board has. But it doesn't change the fact the contract expires in 2024. So a decision needs making.

However I don't think the idea has ever been that the Points get near the shooting.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

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Make MRSS flat tops. Should be plenty of helo's and drones by then. Imagine one with a dozen loyal wingmen providing ISR over a 500 mile radius.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

6 MRSS, if equipped with RAS rig, shall also replace the two Waves in ~2030?
4 Tides for CVTF, and MRSS for all other tasks, including RM Littoral groups AND escort supply? Just technically, if MRSS is with a well-dock, it can also be a very good drone deployment asset. So, an escort supported by a MRSS will be good. With RAS, it can also refuel.

But, I think it better be independent.

"Chimera" will make MRSS operation very expensive. Well-dock for tasks not needing it, RAS rig and big fuel tank for tasks not needing them, will be a nightmare. Both of them require good maintenance and so-so crew.

Thus, I think MRSS shall avoid RAS rig...

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by Lord Jim »

RichardIC wrote:However I don't think the idea has ever been that the Points get near the shooting.
Things are changing and the area where a vessels could be seen as at risk has been growing steadily. With a long standing contract where both sides have agreed a level of risk you might be able to move the vessels nears to where the action is, further up the Norwegian coast for example. If you have to negotiate from scratch every time you want to move heavy kit, this might be more difficult and cost a lot more, both in the sea leg and the road trip at the other end.

Either extending the existing contract for the Points or even subsidising the purchase of replacements for a company in return for them being available in a similar way as now would retain the UK's ability to move large amounts of kit by sea. Having to use any MRSS for this would probably take up the whole fleet given that they are supposed to be smaller and more Agile than the Bays and Albions.

As for capabilities of the MRSS, I think the need a Ro-Ro capability where platforms like hovercraft can be launched for either the bow or the stern of the Ship. It should also have between two and four heavy duty davits to launch and recover platforms up to the size of a CB90, including large unmanned platforms. I would say aviation should be limited to two spots and a hanger for two helicopters the size of Merlin as standard but there should be a modular space available to expand the hanger of provide other capabilities such as a Hospital or additional troop accommodation. Fir self defence the vessel should have counter measure systems equal to a frigate, such as the T-26, and its active systems should include a number of Auto-cannon/LMM mounts and ideally a number of three cell ExLS launchers holding Sea Ceptor that can be fitted dependant on the mission in hand. A full coverage suite of Phalanx should also be installed rather the usual one on a RFA.
Obviously the vessel would have a comprehensive global comms suite.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

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Lord Jim wrote:Having to use any MRSS for this would probably take up the whole fleet given that they are supposed to be smaller and more Agile than the Bays and Albions.
I'm sorry, but what we "know" about the MRSS is one sentence in the Command Paper backed up by another in the Defence and Security Industrial Strategy:
Up to six Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS), to provide the platforms to deliver Littoral Strike, including Maritime Special Operations, in the early 2030s;
Anything else is literally made up.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

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Do we know if this is intended to be one class of 6 identical vessels or a class a 6 varying vessels using the same basic hull design ?

Do we know what exactly they will be replacing, will it be just the 3 Bays and 2 Albion’s or will it also include others such as the Waves and Argus ?

For me I’d go for a varying class of 3 types based on the same hull of ideally 7 vessel. I’d base these on the Karel Doorman class which it’s self is an evolved enforcer design.

Type 1 would be a class of 4 with the current chsnges made to KD
2 LCU well dock
4 LCVP dividens
No RAS
350 troop acomidation
1000 lane metre vehicle deck

Type 2 be a class of 2 with changes to current KD such as
4 LCVP dividens
1000 lane metre vehicle deck
200 troop acomidation

Type 3 be a class of 1 with changes to current KD such as
No RAS
500 lane metre vehicle deck
150 bed class 3 medical set up

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by RichardIC »

Jake1992 wrote:Do we know if this is intended to be one class of 6 identical vessels or a class a 6 varying vessels using the same basic hull design ?

Do we know what exactly they will be replacing, will it be just the 3 Bays and 2 Albion’s or will it also include others such as the Waves and Argus ?
We know what's in the quote above and absolutely nothing more. The Command Paper is infuriatingly vague for anyone who prefers facts, or even firm intentions, to conjecture.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

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RichardIC wrote:I'm sorry, but what we "know" about the MRSS is one sentence in the Command Paper backed up by another in the Defence and Security Industrial Strategy:
Up to six Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS), to provide the platforms to deliver Littoral Strike, including Maritime Special Operations, in the early 2030s;

Anything else is literally made up.
Jake1992 wrote:Do we know if this is intended to be one class of 6 identical vessels or a class a 6 varying vessels using the same basic hull design ?

Do we know what exactly they will be replacing, will it be just the 3 Bays and 2 Albion’s or will it also include others such as the Waves and Argus ?

For me I’d go for a varying class of 3 types based on the same hull of ideally 7 vessel. I’d base these on the Karel Doorman class which it’s self is an evolved enforcer design.

Type 1 would be a class of 4 with the current chsnges made to KD
2 LCU well dock
4 LCVP dividens
No RAS
350 troop acomidation
1000 lane metre vehicle deck

Type 2 be a class of 2 with changes to current KD such as
4 LCVP dividens
1000 lane metre vehicle deck
200 troop acomidation

Type 3 be a class of 1 with changes to current KD such as
No RAS
500 lane metre vehicle deck
150 bed class 3 medical set up
However if you are going spilt the build like that why not go for 6 ships based on the 2nd gen of Enforcer and have

4 x 200 by 30 LPD's able to carry
4 x Merlin , 4 x Caiman 90 , 400 troops and class 3 Medic

2 x 200 by 30 LHD's
20 x aviation assets , 4 x Caiman 90 , 600 troops

it will all come down to cost and by 2030 it will have dropped from 6 to 4 ships I feel drop the RAS and replace the Waves with one extra Tide

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

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RichardIC wrote:The Command Paper is infuriatingly vague for anyone who prefers facts, or even firm intentions, to conjecture.
You do know where you are, right???????? :D :D :D :D

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by Jensy »

Some background speculation by Navy Lookout from a year ago, when the MRSS concept first emerged and was promptly dropped:

https://www.navylookout.com/multi-role- ... -fits-all/

Main differences, from 12 months ago, are that FSS is now a separate programme, and the Albions would appear to be safe from early decommissioning. Could guess that implies a reduced RAS role (as hinted by Donald-san) but who knows?

Until the selected Bay(s) go in for modification (which it's being assumed includes a fixed hangar), I doubt we'll get any indication of the scope of the MRSS, much less what it will look like.

As an aside, the Indians had a MRSV (Multi-Role Support Vessel) programme for four LHDs that got cancelled/postponed indefinitely along with the proposed third carrier. Very different scale of programme but it was claimed that none of the shortlisted designs (Cavour/Mistral etc.) met the future needs for amphibious assault. No idea what its current status is.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by Lord Jim »

The reason I have said the MRSS could be smaller than the ships they would replace is that we seem to be following the USN train of thought in building smaller vessels more suited to the role of the Future Commando Force. This was put forward before the Command Paper.
Therefore if they were also to replace the points and their ability to transport a large number of kit, being smaller vessels you would need more of them to carry the same amount, and as we are only going to have a maximum of six, stating that we would need all of them seemed logical.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by Jake1992 »

Tempest414 wrote:
RichardIC wrote:I'm sorry, but what we "know" about the MRSS is one sentence in the Command Paper backed up by another in the Defence and Security Industrial Strategy:
Up to six Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS), to provide the platforms to deliver Littoral Strike, including Maritime Special Operations, in the early 2030s;

Anything else is literally made up.
Jake1992 wrote:Do we know if this is intended to be one class of 6 identical vessels or a class a 6 varying vessels using the same basic hull design ?

Do we know what exactly they will be replacing, will it be just the 3 Bays and 2 Albion’s or will it also include others such as the Waves and Argus ?

For me I’d go for a varying class of 3 types based on the same hull of ideally 7 vessel. I’d base these on the Karel Doorman class which it’s self is an evolved enforcer design.

Type 1 would be a class of 4 with the current chsnges made to KD
2 LCU well dock
4 LCVP dividens
No RAS
350 troop acomidation
1000 lane metre vehicle deck

Type 2 be a class of 2 with changes to current KD such as
4 LCVP dividens
1000 lane metre vehicle deck
200 troop acomidation

Type 3 be a class of 1 with changes to current KD such as
No RAS
500 lane metre vehicle deck
150 bed class 3 medical set up
However if you are going spilt the build like that why not go for 6 ships based on the 2nd gen of Enforcer and have

4 x 200 by 30 LPD's able to carry
4 x Merlin , 4 x Caiman 90 , 400 troops and class 3 Medic

2 x 200 by 30 LHD's
20 x aviation assets , 4 x Caiman 90 , 600 troops

it will all come down to cost and by 2030 it will have dropped from 6 to 4 ships I feel drop the RAS and replace the Waves with one extra Tide
Because from the very vague out line we’ve got so far is the class is meant to be support vessels aswell not just amphibious vessel, this is why I asked if anyone knew if they were to be a class of 6 identical vessels or a varying class based on the same hull, what I put lined was if they were a varying class.

The KD is similar size the the enforcer at 204m by 30m but fits the support role better than the enforcer and personal I prefer the looks of the KDs slanted sides to the enforcers box design lol

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by Caribbean »

Well, if we are to replace the Albions, Bays and Argus, then a derivative of the Johan de Witt would make sense. Big hangar, large flight deck, 2 x LCU dock, davits for 4 x LCVP sized boats/ offboard system, good vehicle/ stores area (or medical facility etc) and accomodation for an EMF of 550 persons.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by RichardIC »

Ron5 wrote:You do know where you are, right????????
Point taken, but believe it or not it isn't compulsory. And depending what it is you want to achieve you can be obliged to go into eye-watering degrees of detail if you want to avoid a judicial review. It just doesn't apply to anything relating to defence because the public are never properly consulted.

However even the 2015 SDSR, which was largely a work of fantasy, was a lot more specific in many areas.

(Oh and well done me for hitting 1,000 posts in just shy of six years. Probably equates to mid-ranking apathy)

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by RichardIC »

One saving grace is that there's no mention in the Integrated Review or Defence Command Paper of the Littoral Strike Ships or hospital/international aid ships.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

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Caribbean wrote:Well, if we are to replace the Albions, Bays and Argus, then a derivative of the Johan de Witt would make sense. Big hangar, large flight deck, 2 x LCU dock, davits for 4 x LCVP sized boats/ offboard system, good vehicle/ stores area (or medical facility etc) and accomodation for an EMF of 550 persons.
Too much common sense for the RN and MoD.
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What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by Caribbean »

RichardIC wrote:no mention in the Integrated Review or Defence Command Paper of the Littoral Strike Ships
I think it's just morphed into the MRSS - the concepts seem pretty similar, just with a tad more emphasis on the logistics side.
RichardIC wrote: or hospital/international aid ships
Give it time, give it time!
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by Caribbean »

RichardIC wrote:no mention in the Integrated Review or Defence Command Paper of the Littoral Strike Ships
I think it's just morphed into the MRSS - the concepts seem pretty similar, just with a tad more emphasis on the logistics side.
RichardIC wrote: or hospital/international aid ships
Give it time, give it time!
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by RichardIC »

Caribbean wrote:Give it time, give it time!
It can take forever and a day. I'm good with that.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 04 Sep 2023, 08:31 Navylookout article on MRSS.

https://www.navylookout.com/multi-role- ... apability/
Tis a good day when a new article comes out on Navy Lookout.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 04 Sep 2023, 08:31 Navylookout article on MRSS.

https://www.navylookout.com/multi-role- ... apability/
Key take-aways.

Politics:
The idea makes sense from the RN’s perspective and is good politics because MRSS is not yet a funded programme. By involving another nation it makes it more likely it will become a programme of record. Withdrawal from a bilateral endeavour is more politically embarrassing than it would be to quietly cancel a UK-only project. The politicians currently running defence are unlikely to be around when the tough decisions have to be made and it looks good for now to be signing up for more cooperation with one of our closest NATO partners, whatever happens in future.
. Gives security to the RN.
. Politically irrelevant to the conservative party, as the likelihood is that they won't be around to pay the bill.



Both the Royal Marines and the Dutch Korps Mariniers are reconfiguring their commando forces to operate in smaller, more agile, dispersed and highly networked teams.
As the two nations are both at a similar stage in considering how to replace amphibious vessels ....
Putting the cynicism about political motives aside, this is also a sensible and practical idea that could benefit both nations.
. The deal makes sense.
It should be noted this is only a letter of intent to explore the options and there is not yet any binding commitment to detailed design work or joint procurement.
. Not the full 5 miles yet.



Something of a complication is the RNLN desire for the programme to encompass the replacement for their 4 large OPVs of the Holland class, built 2010-11. There does not seem to be a great deal of synergy between the very different capabilities and size of an OPV and an LPD, other than possibly cost-savings derived from a common hull. The project is known as LPX in the Netherlands and, like the UK, their requirement is for a total of 6 ships.
. Problems with the RNLN direction.
. LPX method may be perverse of logic.

Joint development of warships with the UK’s European partners does not have a good track record. The last attempt was the Common New Generation Frigate (CNGF) programme which the UK abandoned in 1999 to design the Type 45 destroyers alone as Italian and French requirements proved to be too divergent from RN needs. Developing a ship together from scratch is quite a different scenario to selling an existing platform design to another nation for customisation as in the case of the Type 26 and Type 31 frigates.
. Woes from history.


[/quote]The advantages of cooperation would be to spread the design cost and the economies of scale when using the same components such as propulsion machinery for potentially up to 12 ships. It is important to note that there cannot be too much deviation in outfitting a common hull otherwise the costs start to rise and the advantages are lost. [/quote]
The longer-term benefit of a common platform would be shared operating experience, logistic support and ships familiar to two forces that are already used to operating closely and embarking on each other’s amphibious vessels.
Provided this core remains the same, then it should not be too difficult to customise the sensors and light self-defence armament to national requirements.

. Logistical support.
. EOS is valuable .
. Needs to retain strong commonality






At the start of the process, there would need to be firm agreement on the Key User Requirements (KUR) that drive the overall design. This needs to be followed by a very disciplined approach to the detailed design avoiding significant changes being demanded by either party.
There will be a balance to be struck between size, expense and capability. It may be possible to go for a smaller LPD depending on the total force projection requirement. The aim is to have the KURs agreed by both parties by the end of this year.
These will dictate space for troop accommodation, lane-meters for vehicles, hangar capacity and the ship’s displacement.
. KUR hopefully by the end of the year.

The ever-increasing vulnerability of a stationary vessel positioned close to the shore suggests troops, weapons, vehicles and their logistic support will have to travel longer distances from the main assault platform. This in turn suggests greater reliance on helicopters. Albion and Bulwark’s lack of hangar facilities has long been regretted as a major weakness.
Assuming the ambition for Littoral Strike extends beyond light raiding, then heavy equipment and stores will still have to come ashore by boat. A helicopter carrier (LPH) is not the solution and a well dock will remain a key part of the design.
The Landing craft (LCU) will also need to be faster, capable of independent operation over longer ranges and in higher sea states than the slow craft Royal Marines make do with today. Good aviation facilities and a well dock for capable LCUs appears to demand a large ship.
Is is pretty obvious that far more firepower will be needed by any force attempting landing operations than is available to the Royal Marines today. Whether this includes GLMRS / HIMARS type rocket or missile launchers or the facility to launch swarming drones and loitering munitions, some novel approaches will be needed if MRSS and its ship-to-shore connectors are going to be more than warmed-over versions of what is currently in service.
Naval Gunfire Support is likely to decline in importance and is not a role for the LPD anyway but other ways of giving fire support to the troops must be found.
. Increased range for ship-to-shore connectors.
. Need for Strong helicopter handling facilities.
. Well decks are crucial, and will remain a key part of the ships design
. LPH will not be a realistic option
. LCU's will need to evolve.
. large Well deck + large aviation facilities denotes a larger ship
. The need for naval GLMRS or equivalent is abundantly clear.
. Some new stuff is to be needed if we truly want a new methodology.
. NGS is indeed dying.


Provided this core remains the same, then it should not be too difficult to customise the sensors and light self-defence armament to national requirements.
In an ideal world, Sea Ceptor air defence missiles would be fitted but are probably well outside the budget envelope. The BAES/Bofors 40mm Mk 4 shown on the ELLIDA mock-ups and fitted to the Type 31 frigates would seem like an optimum self-defence solution.
It is interesting to note the Thales NS100 4D radar, also the primary and fire-control radar for Type 31, has recently been fitted to HMNLS Rotterdam and Johan De Witt.
. Bofors 40mm for the win.
. NS100 could have strong commonality options.

[/quote]RFA Argus has a Role 3 medical facility with 100 patient beds; comprised of 10 Intensive Therapy beds, 20 High Dependency and 70 general beds. The MoD has stated that future Maritime Deployed Hospital Care (MDHC) capability may not replicate the Argus/PCRS model, rather it may be disaggregated between several MRSS, with an option to re-aggregate into a single ship in time of crisis. Essentially all MRSS will have space allocated for medical facilities that can be reconfigured as needed.[/quote]

. Distributed MDHC system.
In the UK it is more complicated to predict where the ships could be built. The construction of 6 ships displacing anything between 10-25,000 tonnes will demand considerable shipyard capacity and it may involve an industrial consortium. Assuming the FSS project remains on track, then the regenerated Harland & Wolff shipyard at Belfast could be an ideal assembly site for such large vessels.
. Harland & wolff / bacock both are likely contenders.

The official Out of Service Dates (as of 2016) were RFA Mounts Bay (2031), Cardigan Bay (2031) RFA Lyme Bay (2032), HMS Albion (2033) and Bulwark (2034). The precise retirement date for Argus is unclear but she has been extended in service “beyond 2030”.
. OSD's approaching fast.
HMS Bulwark can be expected to serve for a maximum of six years after she emerges from refit in 2024. If she is not decommissioned prematurely, HMS Albion may need another substantial, and potentially expensive refit in order to serve for a few years until MRSS is ready to take over from the LPDs.
Completion of the first ships within 6-7 years to replace the Bay class is possible but modest extensions of service for at least one or two ships of the class may be needed.
. Many ships will need to have LIFEX
The aim is to have the KURs agreed by both parties by the end of this year.
In order to replace these vessels on a timely one-for-one basis then the MRSS project needs to proceed quickly and deliver more than one ship per year. A decision on this multi £billion project is unlikely to be made before the post-election defence review which will probably take place in 2025.
2023-2024 and 2025 key moments that are too soon for comfort.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

new guy wrote: 04 Sep 2023, 11:52
The article is a useful update but much more detail could have been explored.

Such as:

-How was the last-gen amphibious fleet designed to operate and what were the individual roles each vessel had in conducting and sustaining an Amphibious Assault?

- How does the requirement now differ and what is being lost and what is being gained?

- How are the new Amphibs going to operate, are they self escorting and will solid stores and liquid replenishment be required or included?

- What allowances are being made for new and evolving technology? Larger than average hanger space? Lift to tank deck? Heavy lift deck cranes, davits and overhead gantry cranes?

- What is the overlap between MRSS, T32 and the next-gen OPVs?

IMO this article doesn’t even scratch the surface on the complexities and compromises involved in replacing what was once one of the most capable Amphibious forces in the world.

Up to 6 MRSS is a massive cut in plain sight and much more needs to be done to highlight that fact.
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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by Fr0sty125 »

The Enforcer 15626ED proposal seems tick a lot of boxes.

156m length
26m beam
12,500 tonnes
2 x 250t LCU
4 x LCVP/FAC/USV/XLUUV
Circa 500 lane meters equivalent to 75 vehicles
340 - troops
Supply stores
Ammunition stores
Cargo ramps
Hangar and deck for 2 medium helicopters
Additional UAV hangar and UAV flight deck
Role 2 hospital
Looks like it could have NS110 radar and a 57mm on the bow and two 40mm mk4.

Page 3&4

https://media.damen.com/image/upload/v1 ... i42MC4wLjA.

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Re: Multi-Role Support Ships (MRSS)

Post by shark bait »

The separate UAV hangar and UAV flight deck is a nice touch, but I'd suggest the hangar is too small, especially since another Damen design has a massive hangar;

https://media.damen.com/image/upload/v1 ... oorman.pdf

Image
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