Obsolescent and outgunned

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
Lord Jim
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Re: Obsolescent and outgunned

Post by Lord Jim »

1st Brigade already has little true fighting capability except for the lowest level of operations. Yes it has the Light Cavalry but the rest is truck borne Infantry and little Artillery. What it can do is provide Garrisons for BOTS and could take over the role of the Specialist Infantry Group, currently in 6th Division, with that unit being disbanded.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Obsolescent and outgunned

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:could take over the role of the Specialist Infantry Group, currently in 6th Division, with that unit being disbanded.
Wonder why the idea for which the Specialist Infantry Group was formed and built is so lightly dismissed?

Of course the 250 in Mali will fall much short of a BG (let's call it Coy-BG, for brewity)
- we will get a lot of experience
- including how useful the legacy AFVs/ AMRAPs are on their own

4-6 times a Coy BG, plus mobile artillery and logs (the latter in Mali will come from the TF Tabuka level, which totals 1000+ in all)
= 1000-1500 light inf. & cavalry
plus 6-18 guns
plus HQ & logs

Why deploy a bde outside of Europe when you can at least start with one of the above, add Apaches and AD as appropriate
- having a CVR version of the Boxer would obviously be a bonus
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Obsolescent and outgunned

Post by Lord Jim »

I agree to a certain extent. In my vision the regular cadres from the Light Cavalry Regiments with Jackals and Coyotes and Infantry Battalions using MRV(P) in 1st Division could provide Coy sized BGs, that would support SF and their SF support units. The Regular and Reserve Artillery Regiments could provide support with their 105mm Light Guns and pedestal mounts Starstreak/LMM. Add to that aviation assets from the AAC and RAF and you have a solid core to work with.

If a large force is required then one of the Motorised Brigades form 3rd Division could form a Battalion based Battle Group or larger, combining MRV(P) and Boxer CVRs. as well as more substantial support assets. This gives a scalable response to a given situation.

1st Division would have nine regular Coy sized BGs which could in a more persistent operation be expanded with some of their reserve component once things have calmed down. This is in addition to their usual training and Garrison duties, where Platoon and Company sized groups of Reserves to temporarily deploy from their training and to gain experience using the hardware not always available in the UK. In this way a career in a unit in 1st Division would be different to that of say 3rd Division but just as challenging with plenty of opportunity for tour overseas.

So I would see the role currently undertaken by the Specialist Infantry Group transferred to 1st Division and even expanded, by syncing it to other Army units and giving them a combat role should the situation require it.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Obsolescent and outgunned

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

OK, I hear you
Lord Jim wrote:Battalion based Battle Group or larger, combining MRV(P) and Boxer CVRs
But if we assume we have Boxer CVR's, then we would certrainly have Boxers (plain), too?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Tempest414
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Re: Obsolescent and outgunned

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote:1st Brigade already has little true fighting capability except for the lowest level of operations. Yes it has the Light Cavalry but the rest is truck borne Infantry and little Artillery. What it can do is provide Garrisons for BOTS and could take over the role of the Specialist Infantry Group, currently in 6th Division, with that unit being disbanded.
The British Army as a whole has little true fighting capability that is not a reason to cut a division which is what I feel you are putting forward. The 1st and the 3rd both need to be given core fighting capability and I have highlighted what could be done for the 1st which would allow it to work in the strike brigade way of thinking against light formations.

As for the 3rd it has 1100 new vehicles on order and maybe 400+ being upgraded yes these programs need to speed up and I would say added to but if we do keep Warrior and Challenger then the 3rd for me should look like this

1 x Armoured corps with

2 x Cavalry regiments = Ajax
2 x Tank regiments = Challenger 3
2 x Armoured Infantry Battalions = Warrior 2
1 x Artillery support group = 36 Archer , 30 MLRS , Air defence , UAV
1 x Logistics group

2 x Mechanised Infantry Brigades with

1 x Cavalry regiment = Boxer CVR
3 x Mech Infantry = Boxer IVF/APC 1 to 3 , 120mm Nemo , ATGW ( 9 of each per Bn )
1 x Artillery support group = 18 Archer , 18 HIMARS , Air Defence UAV
1 x Logistics group

SW1
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Re: Obsolescent and outgunned

Post by SW1 »

I would suggest the following and off course things will overlap but as a consideration for the primary training role.

1 div

A light mechanised force that has fwd engagement with allies, training with partners and mentoring to increase resilience of local forces in priority areas as defined by the IR

6 Div

The deterrent force long range surface to air, surface to surface missiles, special operation capable forces and ISR capability

3 Div

The response force able to deploy from the U.K. to counter Russian forces across the NATO area.

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