UK Defence Forum

Caribbean wrote: ↑18 May 2023, 23:12 And that's the problem. As soon as they pay more than regular members of the Ukrainian armed forces, they become mercenaries in international law.

Thats absolute nonsense...

Status as a mercenary is not defined by how much you're paid....

Its entirely whether or not you are signed up to that country's armed forces....if they sign a contract and oath of allegiance, no matter how long or short, as long as they are on it they are not mercenaries...

Timmymagic wrote: ↑19 May 2023, 07:46

Caribbean wrote: ↑18 May 2023, 23:12 And that's the problem. As soon as they pay more than regular members of the Ukrainian armed forces, they become mercenaries in international law.

Thats absolute nonsense...

Status as a mercenary is not defined by how much you're paid....

Its entirely whether or not you are signed up to that country's armed forces....if they sign a contract and oath of allegiance, no matter how long or short, as long as they are on it they are not mercenaries...

It's a bit more complex than that.

International Convention against the Recruitment,
Use, Financing and Training of Mercenaries
General Assembly resolution 44/34

Article 1 sets out the definition of a mercenary. A mercenary is anyone:

(a) Is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;

(b) Is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar rank and functions in the armed forces of that party;

(c) Is neither a national of a party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a party to the conflict;

(d) Is not a member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict; and

(e) Has not been sent by a State which is not a party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

I would say any US F-16 pilot recruited in the USA and paid more than local pilots would fall foul of every one of those sub-sections.

Section d) would not apply if they signed up for a standard military contract once in Ukraine.
i.e. Same pay & conditions ("substantially in excess" is not defined, but I would suspect that anything greater than 20-25% higher remuneration would fall into that rule) and same length of service.

Any pilot who wouldn't fly for standard UkrAF pay, but would for higher pay falls might be deemed caught by Section b)

The most critical part is the indefinable "motivation of the individual".

This is just the basic definition - there's plenty more rules involved, many of which are not directly combat-related, but refer to financing, control, organisation, recruitment etc. etc. any of which an individual could inadvertently fall foul.

Even the training side is covered, though I suspect that the UK has thoroughly researched the legal requirements around that, if the UK and the Netherlands are looking to set up a training school.

Italy has delivered its part of SAMP/T to Ukraine and now waiting for French to complete its part, understand with its the Thales ~80 km range X-band Arabel MFR, SAMP/T can defend an area of 150 Km2 against ballistic missiles, which equates to ~14 km range

PS The SAMP/T NG with the Aster 30 B1 NT both France and Italy will be equipped with new gen radars, the French in 2025 with the new Thales AESA S-band Ground Fire 300 (GF 300), a single large rotating GaN antenna with 400km range which shares the same design as the fully digital 4D AESA antenna and software defined architecture developed for the naval Sea Fire four fixed faces (4FF), fitted to their new FDI frigates and the Italians with the Leonardo Kronos Ground Mobile High Power (Kronos GM HP) system updated with a GaN TRM antenna.

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/05/ ... r-ukraine/

The Washington Post reporting that the Patriot system claimed to be destroyed by Russia. Deputy Pentagon Spokeswoman Sabrina Singh said Thursday that the United States provided “some assistance” on the repair of the system, but declined to offer additional detail. A U.S. defense official had earlier said the system suffered an indirect hit from Russian fire in the Kyiv region has been fixed and is operational.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... -war-news/

February 2022 - Russia launches what was intended to be a three day invasion to conquer the whole of Ukraine.

May 2023 - A decidedly unconquered Ukraine launches via proxy what will probably be a circa three day invasion of a Russian border region so as to tie down Russian troops with having to defend the entire border for fear of similar incursions elsewhere along it.

May 22, 2023 - DOD announces $375M package for Ukraine
The action is the 38th drawdown from U.S. inventories being sent to Ukraine since August 2021.
The package, being funded via presidential “drawdown” authority that will directly transfer weapons from U.S. stocks includes:

• Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS);
• 155mm and 105mm artillery rounds;
• Tube-Launched, Optically-Tracked, Wire-Guided (TOW) missiles;
• Javelin and AT-4 anti-armor systems;
• Laser-guided rocket system munitions;
• Demolition munitions;
• Armored bridging systems;
• Armored medical treatment vehicles;
• Trucks and trailers to transport heavy equipment;
• Logistics support equipment;
• Thermal imagery systems;
• Spare parts and other field equipment.

https://insidedefense.com/insider/dod-a ... ge-ukraine

Russians in 'caught fibbing' shock:

Its interesting, as we have seen from other videos they don't cause small explosion and that drone seemed to get right next to the hull. Now assuming it went off when the video went off and that the Ivan Khurs has modern armour (very little) it must have done damage to the ship.

Has anyone seen the Ivan Khurs since yesterday?

Jdam wrote: ↑25 May 2023, 17:36 Its interesting, as we have seen from other videos they don't cause small explosion and that drone seemed to get right next to the hull. Now assuming it went off when the video went off and that the Ivan Khurs has modern armour (very little) it must have done damage to the ship.

Has anyone seen the Ivan Khurs since yesterday?

The fate of the ship is currently unknown although a US UAV was paying close attention to the reported area of the Black Sea where this took place yesterday. It is possible that the drone did not detonate on impact or else had a much smaller explosive charge than the drone in the first video. As you say, if it caused a similar explosion there is bound to be at least some damage and probably serious damage given the hit was near where the engine compartment and steering equipment would normally be on a ship. Also, I'm not sure but I doubt spy ships are built with warship damage control standards.

Personally, I think it unlikely the ship has actually sunk or that there were large numbers of casualties because even the Russians might think twice about the optics of saying 'no damage and casualties' one day and then having to later say 'the ship has sunk and fifty sailors are dead.'

Along with the Challenger's are we sending any engineering kit, Titan, Trojan, Terrier and Python for example?

May 31 additional US $300 million tranche of military aid, 39th presidential “drawdown” of U.S. equipment for Ukraine , total $38.3 billion since August 2021.
The package not surprisingly includes AA missiles for Patriot and NASAMS
• Additional munitions for Patriot air defense systems;
• AIM-7 missiles for air defense;
• Avenger air defense systems;
• Stinger anti-aircraft systems;
• Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS);
• 155mm and 105mm artillery rounds;
• 105mm tank ammunition;
• Precision aerial munitions;
• Zuni aircraft rockets;
• Munitions for unmanned aerial systems;
• AT-4 anti-armor systems;
• Over 30 million rounds of small arms ammunition;
• Mine clearing equipment and systems;
• Demolition munitions for obstacle clearing;
• Night vision devices;
• Spare parts, generators, and other field equipment

From <https://insidedefense.com/insider/uk-me ... ustainment>

AIM-7 still in production? (or last of the old stocks?)

Reported US DOD buying some of the 60 ex-Dutch Gepards from Jordan for Ukraine through an intermediary, how many of the 60 involved under the contract not mentioned. The Gepard has been reported to have been very effective in Ukraine (the Dutch version uses different radars to the German version).

Might be similar possibilities in the future if UK follow same route and buy back the 38 CR2s sold to Oman for Ukraine if the following trials of the K2 Panthers in Oman the contract ever signed for 72.

NickC wrote: ↑02 Jun 2023, 12:49 Reported US DOD buying some of the 60 ex-Dutch Gepards from Jordan for Ukraine through an intermediary, how many of the 60 involved under the contract not mentioned. The Gepard has been reported to have been very effective in Ukraine (the Dutch version uses different radars to the German version).

Might be similar possibilities in the future if UK follow same route and buy back the 38 CR2s sold to Oman for Ukraine if the following trials of the K2 Panthers in Oman the contract ever signed for 72.

I am suprised that the UK has not purchased back the Challenger 1's from Jordan and refurbished them for Ukraine. Leopard A1's are heading to Ukraine, and on that note, the Challenger 1's are far superior to the A1's and more than capable of taking on anything that Russia can put onto the field and Jordan did field about 400 of them ( though i am not sure what state of storage they are in right now ). Jordan rretired the last of them in January 2023 !!!! So - a fair amount of the infra will still be around - etc.

TheLoneRanger wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 09:55

NickC wrote: ↑02 Jun 2023, 12:49 Reported US DOD buying some of the 60 ex-Dutch Gepards from Jordan for Ukraine through an intermediary, how many of the 60 involved under the contract not mentioned. The Gepard has been reported to have been very effective in Ukraine (the Dutch version uses different radars to the German version).

Might be similar possibilities in the future if UK follow same route and buy back the 38 CR2s sold to Oman for Ukraine if the following trials of the K2 Panthers in Oman the contract ever signed for 72.

I am suprised that the UK has not purchased back the Challenger 1's from Jordan and refurbished them for Ukraine. Leopard A1's are heading to Ukraine, and on that note, the Challenger 1's are far superior to the A1's and more than capable of taking on anything that Russia can put onto the field and Jordan did field about 400 of them ( though i am not sure what state of storage they are in right now ). Jordan rretired the last of them in January 2023 !!!! So - a fair amount of the infra will still be around - etc.

It maybe that the logistical support available for leopard is better than challenger as there was a much larger user base for leopard.

It’s starting to appear from media coverage anyway we have entered somewhat of a stalemate in Ukraine slightly akin to ww1 with heavy casualties on either side.

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 10:26

TheLoneRanger wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 09:55

NickC wrote: ↑02 Jun 2023, 12:49 Reported US DOD buying some of the 60 ex-Dutch Gepards from Jordan for Ukraine through an intermediary, how many of the 60 involved under the contract not mentioned. The Gepard has been reported to have been very effective in Ukraine (the Dutch version uses different radars to the German version).

Might be similar possibilities in the future if UK follow same route and buy back the 38 CR2s sold to Oman for Ukraine if the following trials of the K2 Panthers in Oman the contract ever signed for 72.

I am suprised that the UK has not purchased back the Challenger 1's from Jordan and refurbished them for Ukraine. Leopard A1's are heading to Ukraine, and on that note, the Challenger 1's are far superior to the A1's and more than capable of taking on anything that Russia can put onto the field and Jordan did field about 400 of them ( though i am not sure what state of storage they are in right now ). Jordan rretired the last of them in January 2023 !!!! So - a fair amount of the infra will still be around - etc.

It maybe that the logistical support available for leopard is better than challenger as there was a much larger user base for leopard.

It’s starting to appear from media coverage anyway we have entered somewhat of a stalemate in Ukraine slightly akin to ww1 with heavy casualties on either side.

What stalemate? Ukraine is just about to start a counter offensive. Let's wait to see how that goes

dmereifield wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 12:29

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 10:26

TheLoneRanger wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 09:55

NickC wrote: ↑02 Jun 2023, 12:49 Reported US DOD buying some of the 60 ex-Dutch Gepards from Jordan for Ukraine through an intermediary, how many of the 60 involved under the contract not mentioned. The Gepard has been reported to have been very effective in Ukraine (the Dutch version uses different radars to the German version).

Might be similar possibilities in the future if UK follow same route and buy back the 38 CR2s sold to Oman for Ukraine if the following trials of the K2 Panthers in Oman the contract ever signed for 72.

I am suprised that the UK has not purchased back the Challenger 1's from Jordan and refurbished them for Ukraine. Leopard A1's are heading to Ukraine, and on that note, the Challenger 1's are far superior to the A1's and more than capable of taking on anything that Russia can put onto the field and Jordan did field about 400 of them ( though i am not sure what state of storage they are in right now ). Jordan rretired the last of them in January 2023 !!!! So - a fair amount of the infra will still be around - etc.

It maybe that the logistical support available for leopard is better than challenger as there was a much larger user base for leopard.

It’s starting to appear from media coverage anyway we have entered somewhat of a stalemate in Ukraine slightly akin to ww1 with heavy casualties on either side.

What stalemate? Ukraine is just about to start a counter offensive. Let's wait to see how that goes

Not sure about start counter offensive,they might be a couple of months yet or later on in summer,they might be waiting to get more kit ,shells , missiles, German and French cruise etc and even longer range missiles from USA for himars and even possibly fighters before they even start , wanting and needing the best possible outcome for when they do start ,so just saying it could be a couple of months yet before they go for it

inch wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 13:57

dmereifield wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 12:29

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 10:26

TheLoneRanger wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 09:55

NickC wrote: ↑02 Jun 2023, 12:49 Reported US DOD buying some of the 60 ex-Dutch Gepards from Jordan for Ukraine through an intermediary, how many of the 60 involved under the contract not mentioned. The Gepard has been reported to have been very effective in Ukraine (the Dutch version uses different radars to the German version).

Might be similar possibilities in the future if UK follow same route and buy back the 38 CR2s sold to Oman for Ukraine if the following trials of the K2 Panthers in Oman the contract ever signed for 72.

I am suprised that the UK has not purchased back the Challenger 1's from Jordan and refurbished them for Ukraine. Leopard A1's are heading to Ukraine, and on that note, the Challenger 1's are far superior to the A1's and more than capable of taking on anything that Russia can put onto the field and Jordan did field about 400 of them ( though i am not sure what state of storage they are in right now ). Jordan rretired the last of them in January 2023 !!!! So - a fair amount of the infra will still be around - etc.

It maybe that the logistical support available for leopard is better than challenger as there was a much larger user base for leopard.

It’s starting to appear from media coverage anyway we have entered somewhat of a stalemate in Ukraine slightly akin to ww1 with heavy casualties on either side.

What stalemate? Ukraine is just about to start a counter offensive. Let's wait to see how that goes

Not sure about start counter offensive,they might be a couple of months yet or later on in summer,they might be waiting to get more kit ,shells , missiles, German and French cruise etc and even longer range missiles from USA for himars and even possibly fighters before they even start , wanting and needing the best possible outcome for when they do start ,so just saying it could be a couple of months yet before they go for it

Zelensky reported as saying today that they are ready to start, would like to wait for more supplies from allies but can't keep waiting....so, presumably, it'll be happening soon

dmereifield wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 12:29

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 10:26

TheLoneRanger wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 09:55

NickC wrote: ↑02 Jun 2023, 12:49 Reported US DOD buying some of the 60 ex-Dutch Gepards from Jordan for Ukraine through an intermediary, how many of the 60 involved under the contract not mentioned. The Gepard has been reported to have been very effective in Ukraine (the Dutch version uses different radars to the German version).

Might be similar possibilities in the future if UK follow same route and buy back the 38 CR2s sold to Oman for Ukraine if the following trials of the K2 Panthers in Oman the contract ever signed for 72.

I am suprised that the UK has not purchased back the Challenger 1's from Jordan and refurbished them for Ukraine. Leopard A1's are heading to Ukraine, and on that note, the Challenger 1's are far superior to the A1's and more than capable of taking on anything that Russia can put onto the field and Jordan did field about 400 of them ( though i am not sure what state of storage they are in right now ). Jordan rretired the last of them in January 2023 !!!! So - a fair amount of the infra will still be around - etc.

It maybe that the logistical support available for leopard is better than challenger as there was a much larger user base for leopard.

It’s starting to appear from media coverage anyway we have entered somewhat of a stalemate in Ukraine slightly akin to ww1 with heavy casualties on either side.

What stalemate? Ukraine is just about to start a counter offensive. Let's wait to see how that goes

Been hearing the counter offensive has been imminent since March! It may change that’s very true but as of now it looks like a stalemate a very very bloody one.

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 18:51

dmereifield wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 12:29

SW1 wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 10:26

TheLoneRanger wrote: ↑03 Jun 2023, 09:55

NickC wrote: ↑02 Jun 2023, 12:49 Reported US DOD buying some of the 60 ex-Dutch Gepards from Jordan for Ukraine through an intermediary, how many of the 60 involved under the contract not mentioned. The Gepard has been reported to have been very effective in Ukraine (the Dutch version uses different radars to the German version).

Might be similar possibilities in the future if UK follow same route and buy back the 38 CR2s sold to Oman for Ukraine if the following trials of the K2 Panthers in Oman the contract ever signed for 72.

I am suprised that the UK has not purchased back the Challenger 1's from Jordan and refurbished them for Ukraine. Leopard A1's are heading to Ukraine, and on that note, the Challenger 1's are far superior to the A1's and more than capable of taking on anything that Russia can put onto the field and Jordan did field about 400 of them ( though i am not sure what state of storage they are in right now ). Jordan rretired the last of them in January 2023 !!!! So - a fair amount of the infra will still be around - etc.

It maybe that the logistical support available for leopard is better than challenger as there was a much larger user base for leopard.

It’s starting to appear from media coverage anyway we have entered somewhat of a stalemate in Ukraine slightly akin to ww1 with heavy casualties on either side.

What stalemate? Ukraine is just about to start a counter offensive. Let's wait to see how that goes

Been hearing the counter offensive has been imminent since March! It may change that’s very true but as of now it looks like a stalemate a very very bloody one.

Well, it's been extremely bloody for the Russians, particularly around Bakhmut, where they have only gained ground at huge cost.

March was, of course, still mud season - no attack was likely then.

Now, the focus is on Belgorod, where a couple of companies of Russian dissidents have been creating chaos, resulting in Russian Federation troops shelling one of their own cities in the belief that they are shelling the dissidents. Russia is very skilled at shelling civilians - it spent 8 years shelling civilians in the Donbas

Meanwhile, the UAF keep picking off major logistics and command targets in the occupied territories, using various longer-ranged missiles, like Storm Shadow (deployed from SU-25s) and SDB

Russia has of course claimed to have shot down more Storm Shadow than Ukraine has received, killed every HIMARS several times over and shot down the entire Ukrainian airforce. AGAIN

The counter-offensive will start, or maybe has already started, or maybe hasn't yet started, but when it did, or does, it will be in a way that we didn't/ don't expect, or possibly did/ do.

If you are confused about what is happening on the ground, GOOD

I understood the Belgorod operations to have caused Russian forces to move from Ukraine to counter this ,but then have been targeted by Ukraine on the logistical hubs in Ukraine accordingly ,obviously these claims are hard to substantiate for logistical losses ,and that missiles like Storm Shadow have targeted larger warehouses and bases previously beyond range time will tell

Still a bit shocked by the whole thing

Jdam wrote: ↑06 Jun 2023, 17:57

Still a bit shocked by the whole thing

Awful. I read that the Russian's allowed the volume to increase before blowing it, to cause maximum damage.

We'll not know the full extend of the tragic loss of life, homes and ecological damage for some time. From a strategic perspective, how does this impact Ukraine's options for the counter offensive?

I don't know how this really effects anything as I don't believe Ukraine was planning on a Dnipro River crossing as part of the counter offensive. I guess Russia could move more troops further up the river.

Night of 6th June Ukrainian Air Force claims to have destroyed 35 out of 35 of the Kh-101/Kh-555 sub-sonic missiles (Russian equivalent of a Tomahawk) launched from Tu-95 bombers from the Caspian Sea.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/06/6/7405478/