The war in Ukraine

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SW1
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by SW1 »

Enigmatically wrote: 09 Feb 2023, 20:51
SW1 wrote: 09 Feb 2023, 17:41 You do realise tornado left RAF service 4 years ago!! German bought most of the spares about as likely to be offered as sea harriers :shifty:
I think we have a small number at Honington, hence the suggestion. Not sure about others
There’s a handful and there ground props for training. You will need a jet with a robust spares pipe line that is not tornado.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Interesting but unsurprising story


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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by bobp »

SW1 wrote: 09 Feb 2023, 21:39 Interesting but unsurprising story


I think that this has been mentioned before in a story about long range artillery.

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mrclark303
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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SW1 wrote: 09 Feb 2023, 21:35
Enigmatically wrote: 09 Feb 2023, 20:51
SW1 wrote: 09 Feb 2023, 17:41 You do realise tornado left RAF service 4 years ago!! German bought most of the spares about as likely to be offered as sea harriers :shifty:
I think we have a small number at Honington, hence the suggestion. Not sure about others
There’s a handful and there ground props for training. You will need a jet with a robust spares pipe line that is not tornado.
Just to add, the days of mothballing retired fleets at Shawbury have long gone.

We live in a ' live for today, just in time' culture now, so as the Tornados were retired, they flew into Shawbury to be reduced to produce and scrapped.

There are no viable airframes or spares in the system.

Blustering Boris and his rather silly claim that we should effectively disband RAF fast air ( 100 Typhoons) and give them to Ukraine is typical 'Boris', but at least it raises the issue internationally and turns up the heat on little big man Putin.

I still maintain that the only way of getting fast air into Ukraine quickly, (within the next six months), would be via a private military company.

Plenty of surplus F16's/spares and former air/ ground crew to recruit from internationally to form a viable air wing of 36 jets.

It would be a game changer and Russian air losses would rapidly become untenable.

Even older model F16's, with older Sidewinder and AMRAAM variants are more than a match for anything Ivan can throw at them, particularly with Western trained pilots.

I would think this is a prerequisite to a Ukrainian ground counter offensive with Western Armour.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Are PMC's allowed to own Fast Air? I was always under the impression that used jets in fighting condition were gov-2-gov only, that a civilian company could only have them if they were dumbed down (all the important black boxes removed)...

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Little J wrote: 10 Feb 2023, 11:54 Are PMC's allowed to own Fast Air? I was always under the impression that used jets in fighting condition were gov-2-gov only, that a civilian company could only have them if they were dumbed down (all the important black boxes removed)...
think you will find the little black boxes were removed and that the companies have fitted new simulator kits on the aircraft

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mrclark303
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Little J wrote: 10 Feb 2023, 11:54 Are PMC's allowed to own Fast Air? I was always under the impression that used jets in fighting condition were gov-2-gov only, that a civilian company could only have them if they were dumbed down (all the important black boxes removed)...
I dare say it will require an agreement between Western powers to push the idea forward....

PMC's have operated attack Helicopters before, so it's only a small, but admittedly important step.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Little J »

mrclark303 wrote: 10 Feb 2023, 14:11 I dare say it will require an agreement between Western powers to push the idea forward....

PMC's have operated attack Helicopters before, so it's only a small, but admittedly important step.
haha... You make it sound like its nothing, just look at how hard it is to get agreements on sending equipment gov-2-gov at the moment.

Just out of interest, when were (western) PMC's using AH's? I know Blackwater used unarmed Little Birds and others have used Huey's, etc... I'm not including the Russian PMC's in this, as Putin is probably nutz enough to let them use nukes :crazy:

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Little J wrote: 10 Feb 2023, 14:37
mrclark303 wrote: 10 Feb 2023, 14:11 I dare say it will require an agreement between Western powers to push the idea forward....

PMC's have operated attack Helicopters before, so it's only a small, but admittedly important step.
haha... You make it sound like its nothing, just look at how hard it is to get agreements on sending equipment gov-2-gov at the moment.

Just out of interest, when were (western) PMC's using AH's? I know Blackwater used unarmed Little Birds and others have used Huey's, etc... I'm not including the Russian PMC's in this, as Putin is probably nutz enough to let them use nukes :crazy:
Evening,

Hinds we're used by South African PMC's in Angola back in the 1980's and various othe Sub Sahara bun fights since....

The issue is this, Ukraine require Western Fighters now.

Even if agreement could be reached to sell / give/ lease them F16's, it would be an absolute minimum of 18 months before they could be employed as an effective force in the numbers needed.

Some lateral thinking is needed here, if we want to effect change quickly and bring this whole sorry affair to a close this year, then a dedicated PMC equipped with F16 is the only way to go.

I firmly agree that if international concensus could be reached quickly, the US ( or Israel) could supply the aircraft, backup and the training package and get up and running with mercenary pilots really quite quickly.

The time has come I think.....

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mrclark303
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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mrclark303 wrote: 10 Feb 2023, 18:22
Little J wrote: 10 Feb 2023, 14:37
mrclark303 wrote: 10 Feb 2023, 14:11 I dare say it will require an agreement between Western powers to push the idea forward....

PMC's have operated attack Helicopters before, so it's only a small, but admittedly important step.
haha... You make it sound like its nothing, just look at how hard it is to get agreements on sending equipment gov-2-gov at the moment.

Just out of interest, when were (western) PMC's using AH's? I know Blackwater used unarmed Little Birds and others have used Huey's, etc... I'm not including the Russian PMC's in this, as Putin is probably nutz enough to let them use nukes :crazy:
Evening,

Hinds we're used by South African PMC's in Angola back in the 1980's and various othe Sub Sahara bun fights since....

The issue is this, Ukraine require Western Fighters now.

Even if agreement could be reached to sell / give/ lease them F16's, it would be an absolute minimum of 18 months before they could be employed as an effective force in the numbers needed.

Some lateral thinking is needed here, if we want to effect change quickly and bring this whole sorry affair to a close this year, then a dedicated PMC equipped with F16 is the only way to go.

I firmly agree that if international concensus could be reached quickly, the US ( or Israel) could supply the aircraft, backup and the training package and get up and running with mercenary pilots really quite quickly.

The time has come I think.....
As a side note, the PMC would be officially contracted by Ukraine.

While this was going on, we could get started on the re- equipment of the Ukrainians with F16, to allow the PMC to be released when eventually operational.

We are talking years here though....

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by albedo »

See there have been sirens throughout Ukraine today and still ongoing:

https://tryvoha.com/en

NB Luhansk oblast is always red - not sure why.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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This is a crazy and sobering figure, casualties on a par with the World Wars so far in February:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64616099

I'd be surprised if the KIA figure is accurate but would not be overly surprised if total Russian casualties (i.e also included wounded, captured and missing) are in that region on a daily basis. Tactics like these really do not help:



Of course Ukrainian casualties are also very high, the World has been lucky that it has been largely able to forget just how appallingly deadly large scale warfare actually is.
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Phil Sayers wrote: 12 Feb 2023, 13:26 This is a crazy and sobering figure, casualties on a par with the World Wars so far in February:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64616099

I'd be surprised if the KIA figure is accurate but would not be overly surprised if total Russian casualties (i.e also included wounded, captured and missing) are in that region on a daily basis. Tactics like these really do not help:



Of course Ukrainian casualties are also very high, the World has been lucky that it has been largely able to forget just how appallingly deadly large scale warfare actually is.
Good grief...... The casualty rate is appalling, let's not forget that many of them are just youngsters thrown into Putin's meat grinder.

Unfortunately it's the Russian way, those in charge don't give a toss about the body count, just give their replacements a uniform, an AK74 and shove them in behind.... And so the conveyer belt keeps churning them out.
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Two things are happening in the Black Sea which together could shift the dynamic in Russia’s favor. Russia has copied Ukraine’s’ maritime drones and started using them. At the same time, a decision by Elon Musk to limit Starlink use may stop Ukraine using their own.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... an-threat/
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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xav wrote: 15 Feb 2023, 14:52 Two things are happening in the Black Sea which together could shift the dynamic in Russia’s favor. Russia has copied Ukraine’s’ maritime drones and started using them. At the same time, a decision by Elon Musk to limit Starlink use may stop Ukraine using their own.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... an-threat/
Will hurt for sure - but wont materially affect things as there are so many bridges acoss the river anyway.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... ar-invade/

Britain is prepared to send fighter jets to its Eastern European allies in order to unlock shipments of Soviet-era aircraft to Ukraine, Ben Wallace said on Friday.

The Defence Secretary told Times Radio: "The other quick way that Ukraine can benefit from fighter jets is for those countries in Europe that have Russian Soviet fighter jets - MiG 29s or Su-24s - if they wish to donate we can use our fighter jets to backfill and provide security for them as a result.

"They are already configured to fight in a Nato way, where of course Ukraine isn't."

The likes of Poland and Slovakia have signalled they are ready to send MiG-29 as part of an international effort to better arm Ukraine.

For this to happen, the Eastern countries would need Western fighter jets to be leant to them to backfill for any Soviet-era models delivered to Kyiv.

Polish and Slovak MiGs have been upgraded, unlike the jets Ukraine flies, to operate with Nato-standard weapons, such as the RAF's Storm Shadow cruise missile, and communications systems.
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Latest US weapons aid package to Ukraine worth $2 billion

Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems;
Additional 155mm artillery rounds;
Munitions for laser-guided rocket systems;
CyberLux K8 unmanned aerial systems;
Switchblade 600 UAS;
Altius-600 UAS;
Jump 20 UAS;
Counter-UAS and electronic warfare detection equipment;
Mine clearing equipment;
Secure communications support equipment;
Funding for training, maintenance and sustainment.

Noticeable the high number of UAS, overall US weapon aid total hits $32 billion.
US has specifically provided more than 1,600 Stingers, over 8,500 Javelins, 232 howitzers, 38 HIMARS and more than two million rounds of artillery ammunition and has pledged to provide one Patriot a BMD battery, eight National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems, 109 Bradley IFV's, 31 Abrams tanks and 90 Stryker APC's. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin noted not all the weapons will not reach Ukraine that soon, many months, possibly a year or two delay, so looks like the Abrams tanks will not reach Ukraine till next year, seems very, very slow as US has many in reserve, thousands?, the US Marines passed their 400+ tanks to add to the Army reserves in 2021 after deactivation of their tank battalions and have seen mention 88 held in European reserve.

https://insidedefense.com/insider/uk-me ... ustainment

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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SW1 wrote: 24 Feb 2023, 09:32 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... ar-invade/

Britain is prepared to send fighter jets to its Eastern European allies in order to unlock shipments of Soviet-era aircraft to Ukraine, Ben Wallace said on Friday.

The Defence Secretary told Times Radio: "The other quick way that Ukraine can benefit from fighter jets is for those countries in Europe that have Russian Soviet fighter jets - MiG 29s or Su-24s - if they wish to donate we can use our fighter jets to backfill and provide security for them as a result.
We all know they are taking about the T1s but wouldn't we need to give them the weapons as well for the jets?

NickC wrote: 24 Feb 2023, 11:03 two million rounds of artillery ammunition
Holy shit :wtf:

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Zeno »

First deliveries of Leopards have arrived in Ukraine the Polish Prime minister has also said that 60 of the PT-91 Twardy tanks will be delivered in the coming days these are an upgraded T-72
https://www.txtreport.com/news/2023-02- ... GHI0s.html
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Zeno wrote: 24 Feb 2023, 14:06 First deliveries of Leopards have arrived in Ukraine the Polish Prime minister has also said that 60 of the PT-91 Twardy tanks will be delivered in the coming days these are an upgraded T-72
https://www.txtreport.com/news/2023-02- ... GHI0s.html
I was just reading up on the PT-91, it's certainly more than a warmed over T72, it might be ageing, but it's certainly capable of knocking seven bells out of Russian Armour!

60 is a good Armoured regiments worth too....

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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NickC wrote: 24 Feb 2023, 11:03 Latest US weapons aid package to Ukraine worth $2 billion

Additional ammunition for High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems;
Additional 155mm artillery rounds;
Munitions for laser-guided rocket systems;
CyberLux K8 unmanned aerial systems;
Switchblade 600 UAS;
Altius-600 UAS;
Jump 20 UAS;
Counter-UAS and electronic warfare detection equipment;
Mine clearing equipment;
Secure communications support equipment;
Funding for training, maintenance and sustainment.

Noticeable the high number of UAS, overall US weapon aid total hits $32 billion.
US has specifically provided more than 1,600 Stingers, over 8,500 Javelins, 232 howitzers, 38 HIMARS and more than two million rounds of artillery ammunition and has pledged to provide one Patriot a BMD battery, eight National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems, 109 Bradley IFV's, 31 Abrams tanks and 90 Stryker APC's. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin noted not all the weapons will not reach Ukraine that soon, many months, possibly a year or two delay, so looks like the Abrams tanks will not reach Ukraine till next year, seems very, very slow as US has many in reserve, thousands?, the US Marines passed their 400+ tanks to add to the Army reserves in 2021 after deactivation of their tank battalions and have seen mention 88 held in European reserve.

https://insidedefense.com/insider/uk-me ... ustainment
The way that America prices its "military aid" is interesting - and probably not in America's interest(imho - but then i am biased as i want more military equipment to be sent to Ukraine !!!). If America gets a Bradley from one of its "stores" and then refurbishes it before it sends it - it "then" charges the "full new build replacement price of that Bradley " from the aid it has gotten from Congress. So the amount of actual military weapons relative to the $ spend is lower than charging the "current effective 2nd hand price of the Bradley" would be ...

Ammunition/new builds of course - correct at current pricing - but the older stock pricing strategy to me should be changed to be more in the goverments interest than the military-industry complex in USA ????

It is America's money and they can price/deliver how they see fit of course etc !!! American but i do feel the Americans could get more of their strategic interests met - if they changed that approach..

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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SW1 wrote: 24 Feb 2023, 09:32 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... ar-invade/

Britain is prepared to send fighter jets to its Eastern European allies in order to unlock shipments of Soviet-era aircraft to Ukraine, Ben Wallace said on Friday.

The Defence Secretary told Times Radio: "The other quick way that Ukraine can benefit from fighter jets is for those countries in Europe that have Russian Soviet fighter jets - MiG 29s or Su-24s - if they wish to donate we can use our fighter jets to backfill and provide security for them as a result.

"They are already configured to fight in a Nato way, where of course Ukraine isn't."

The likes of Poland and Slovakia have signalled they are ready to send MiG-29 as part of an international effort to better arm Ukraine.

For this to happen, the Eastern countries would need Western fighter jets to be leant to them to backfill for any Soviet-era models delivered to Kyiv.

Polish and Slovak MiGs have been upgraded, unlike the jets Ukraine flies, to operate with Nato-standard weapons, such as the RAF's Storm Shadow cruise missile, and communications systems.
There are only a few aircraft that can operate the Storm Shadow SW1, specifically the Thypoon and French version, carried on their Rafael....

The UK has nothing to give in relation to fast jets, but we could pitch in for an F16 buy...

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Tempest414 »

I can't see our T1 Typhoons going to Ukraine I can see them going to Poland in the short term as a stop gap until the new replacement aircraft like FA-50 and F-35 come in

The only real game in town is F-16 or F-18A+/C both of these are just leaving service in numbers but it means the US stepping up

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by SW1 »

I disagree I don’t believe nato jets will end up in Ukraine prior to a ceasefire agreement. The logistics of supporting them is the single biggest issue. I can see types they are familiar with being sent as an interim measure possibly procured from others and sent. the chance of confusion along the Ukrainian border would be quite high if NATO and Ukraine were operating the same aircraft especially if the US allow similar IFF fits to remain on supplied aircraft.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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In Ukraine fight, integrated air defense has made many aircraft ‘worthless’: US Air Force general

Ukrainian and Russian air defenses have mutually denied air superiority, a problem particularly acute for close air support missions. “Both of their integrated air and missile defense, especially when you're talking about going against aircraft, have been very effective,”

“Both of their integrated air and missile defense, especially when you’re talking about going against aircraft, have been very effective,”

As such, both countries’ militaries have had to adapt their tactics for close air support missions, relying more heavily on ordinance like HIMARS-launched rockets to strike ground targets. Aircraft, meanwhile, have mostly had to hang back outside the coverage of air defense systems and employ longer-range weapons, according to Hecker.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/03/in- ... e-general/

Thoughts on anything that makes Ukraine "special" or is it now the minimum standard scenario for successfully operating attack aircraft and helos to be equipped with stand-off missiles eg Spear 3 / EW etc be operationally effective.

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