The war in Ukraine

Discuss current, historical or potential future conflicts around the world.
Jdam
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Jdam »



I wonder how true this is?

Take 20% off those numbers and it still isn't pretty. :wtf:

Caribbean
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Caribbean »

Well, Oryx put (photographically confirmed) Russian tank losses at 760, so somewhere between the two
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Enigmatically
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Enigmatically »

dmereifield wrote: 01 Jun 2022, 15:00
The German government has been pledging a lot but delivering little, late and in poor condition...so don't go holding your breath
did anyone hold their breath?
It now turns out that Germany won’t send the M270 MLRs Scholz promised to Ukraine until much later than thought.

The Germans say the weapons system lacks a software update making it possible to fire American and British missiles.

The transfer “won’t happen before winter.”

Enigmatically
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Enigmatically »

Caribbean wrote: 08 Jun 2022, 16:40 Well, Oryx put (photographically confirmed) Russian tank losses at 760, so somewhere between the two
I think (from memory) the definition of "tanks" above is broader than Oryx uses as well. IIRC Oryx has separate categories for SPGs etc that the above seems to lack
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Caribbean

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Caribbean »

Yes - good point - how they are categorised could result in large differences. I wonder which categories things like engineering variants are counted in, for instance.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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Tempest414
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Tempest414 »

So the two British Lads taken POW in April have been given the death sentence in Russia

How low can Russia really go we will see what happens now but if you are a foreign fight you may as well fight to the death now

Also any foreign fights on the Russian side better start thinking it could happen to them

mr.fred
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by mr.fred »

Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jun 2022, 17:35 Also any foreign fights on the Russian side better start thinking it could happen to them
I'd like to think that the Ukrainians are better than that.

It's the failing of the tyrants to allow no quarter - it only makes the people subject to it fight harder.
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Tempest414
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Tempest414 »

You are every right

Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

So how would the Ukrainian Separatists 'from eastern Ukraine that are fighting for Russia in the latter's war be classified? Also regarding the two "Brits". Well one had Ukrainian citizenship and the other had applied for it, plus both had served in the Ukrainian military and reserves since 2018.

The only think that was said in this trial was that the two guys were fighting for Ukraine, that is it. Ukraine will need to keep its soldiers and civilians in check or things could start to spiral. They didn't do themselves many favours though by putting that Russian soldier on trail whilst the war was ongoing. The Russians were able to spin it as a show trial for their publics consumption and probably encourage the recent event as a likely tit of tat.

wargame_insomniac
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Lord Jim wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 00:59 So how would the Ukrainian Separatists 'from eastern Ukraine that are fighting for Russia in the latter's war be classified? Also regarding the two "Brits". Well one had Ukrainian citizenship and the other had applied for it, plus both had served in the Ukrainian military and reserves since 2018.

The only think that was said in this trial was that the two guys were fighting for Ukraine, that is it. Ukraine will need to keep its soldiers and civilians in check or things could start to spiral. They didn't do themselves many favours though by putting that Russian soldier on trail whilst the war was ongoing. The Russians were able to spin it as a show trial for their publics consumption and probably encourage the recent event as a likely tit of tat.
Well to be fair they had clear CCTV showing that Russian soldier clearly shooting that unarmed man. It WAS a clear warcrime committed so I can understand the Ukrainians putting him on trial.

Enigmatically
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Enigmatically »

I don't think there is any doubt he is guilty, but I do get Jim's point that delaying the trial might have been. In their wider interest

jimthelad
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by jimthelad »

Why delay. He broke the rules of war. Either his defence is that he was within his explicit RoE or he acted unilaterally to commit murder. Either way it is a clear breach of international law, and as such, why wait. It might act as a deterrent for for other troops behaving in that way.

Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

The way Ukraine handled the situation with the Russian soldier went against normal practice which is not to put those accused of war crimes on trial until after the war. They could have held the soldier as a POW until then, excluding him from and prisoner exchanges though. It was obvious the Russia and the Separatists, and it is the latter bringing the charges against the two UK blokes, would at least do a tit for tat trial,and the Azov Brigade was the perfect option given their past record and reputation. The fact that they are now much more like a regular Ukrainian unit than a militia unit means nothing to Russia or their lackies.

Phil Sayers
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Phil Sayers »

Russian MI-35 attack helicopter being shot down at extremely low altitude over Ukraine this afternoon, reportedly by an Igla MANPADS:


Zeno
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Zeno »

Lord Jim wrote: 10 Jun 2022, 21:19 The way Ukraine handled the situation with the Russian soldier went against normal practice which is not to put those accused of war crimes on trial until after the war. They could have held the soldier as a POW until then, excluding him from and prisoner exchanges though. It was obvious the Russia and the Separatists, and it is the latter bringing the charges against the two UK blokes, would at least do a tit for tat trial,and the Azov Brigade was the perfect option given their past record and reputation. The fact that they are now much more like a regular Ukrainian unit than a militia unit means nothing to Russia or their lackies.
Normal practice is fine but in a situation of ongoing atrocities against civilians ,such a message of consequence may get through to opposing forces on what happens if captured and found to have committed such crimes , how would the family of those in court view such trials ,not pride
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Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

I understand where you are coming from, but we are dealing with a country and its proxies that will ignore any lesson and carry out a counter trial of captured soldiers who will be convicted on what are most likely made up charges.

Zeno
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Zeno »

Lord Jim wrote: 17 Jun 2022, 23:30 I understand where you are coming from, but we are dealing with a country and its proxies that will ignore any lesson and carry out a counter trial of captured soldiers who will be convicted on what are most likely made up charges.
This article provides some clarification on what are the responsibilities of opposing forces in their treatment of captured combatants as well as civilians ,certainly the treatment of civilians in this war is likely illegal
https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/war-and-law ... ersons.htm

mr.fred
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by mr.fred »

Lord Jim wrote: 17 Jun 2022, 23:30 I understand where you are coming from, but we are dealing with a country and its proxies that will ignore any lesson and carry out a counter trial of captured soldiers who will be convicted on what are most likely made up charges.
They'd have done it anyway.
The key difference between a soldier imprisoned for a crime and one executed for nebulous made-up things is you can re-try the one in prison in the event you got it wrong. In any case it doesn't significantly change them being incarcerated during the conflict.

Like many con-artists, the Russians are creating a limited time situation in an attempt to rush a decision which they hope will be in their favour.

Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

Well any POWs are "incarcerated", so to speak. In my opinion you therefore you know where they are if you find they should be charged with any crimes and out on trial after the conflict. During a conflict, no matter how justified the case may be creates an impression of being a propaganda exercise rather then the actual pursuit of justice. Detaining suspects not already held as a POW is far more problematical and often depends on which side won the conflict.

Phil Sayers
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Phil Sayers »

HIMARS has now arrived and I assume our MLRS are not far behind. The Russian rear is hopefully in for an utterly torrid time:


Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

With only a total of Twelve MLRS systems (HIMARS and M270) in total they will not have the impact the Ukrainians need they need dozens of each and a large supply of munitions of various types for these and the 155mm Guns delivered.

I still think we should send all our M270s and then try to get the Royal Artillery sixty odd HIMARS at a discount from the USA under FMS.
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R686sunstersun

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by R686 »

Lord Jim wrote: 23 Jun 2022, 20:59 With only a total of Twelve MLRS systems (HIMARS and M270) in total they will not have the impact the Ukrainians need they need dozens of each and a large supply of munitions of various types for these and the 155mm Guns delivered.

I still think we should send all our M270s and then try to get the Royal Artillery sixty odd HIMARS at a discount from the USA under FMS.

if you want a discount then it has to be government to government sale, as under FMS you buy at the same rate as US defence force rate plus a fee for administration

Generally the US defence rate is the best rate you will get due to the numbers in US buying programs exchange rates also cuase fluctuations.

sunstersun
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by sunstersun »



I imagine it's like opening up a PS4 on Christmas.

Zeno
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Zeno »

This article suggests some success with its use
https://myukraineis.org/news/the_armed_ ... o-667.html

sunstersun
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by sunstersun »

Zeno wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 22:05 This article suggests some success with its use
https://myukraineis.org/news/the_armed_ ... o-667.html
There was 0 doubt it would be successful. It's literally top of the line gear. The Marines have 10's of units under 50 trying to replace the 500 M777's with HIMARS.

HIMARS is gonna show why 20 is better than 200 Grad

Now if only Biden would sent ATACMS. Crimea :clap:

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