The war in Ukraine

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Phil Sayers
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Phil Sayers »

It is heavily rumoured that the US are about to announce providing Ground launched SDBs. Apparently some have been manufactured already so those could be a quick transfer but no idea as to how many. It isn't ATACMS or Storm Shadow but it would be precision strike, albeit with a modest warhead, out to over ninety miles. That will make a big difference as Russia well understands HIMARS and M240 range by now so have been placing their ammo dumps etc just beyond that range. Will need to move them further back still which will hamper logistics.

Also, a lot of northern Crimea would become within range and I doubt Ukraine would hold back unless the US makes that a condition of supply (which they seem to be indicating they won't).
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inch
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by inch »

Reading that maybe a few leopard 1 tanks might be going to Ukraine in different news articles , which don't get me wrong I'm all for sending tanks to Ukraine from west ,but with armed 105mm gum aren't they just going to be outgunned by the t72
125 mm series Russian tanks ? If that's the case why not try and get old challenger 1 tanks to Ukraine, at least armed with 120 mm ,mind you ammunition might be an issue as we only have 1 days worth according to some news articles,so that might be the issue as well as the current state of the challenger 1 tanks in storage

Phil Sayers
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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So far as I know we don't have any Challenger 1s in storage. Those we did have were all shipped to Jordan.

As a general point, while I accept that storing stuff that has been replaced is not cost free, I do think we should do a little more of it (although nowhere near the Russian extreme). Never know what might come in use on a rainy day.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by SW1 »

If you maintain a production line and supply chain even at a very low rate it can mitigate the need for storage of ancient equipment and the difficulty of attempting to upgrade it. You buy new to the latest standard.

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Jdam
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Phil Sayers wrote: 02 Feb 2023, 13:51 It is heavily rumoured that the US are about to announce providing Ground launched SDBs. Apparently some have been manufactured already so those could be a quick transfer but no idea as to how many.
https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... r-ukraine/

And there it is.
The GLSDB marries the GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb, a 250-pound precision-guided munition that costs $40,000 each, and the M26, a demilitarized rocket.
Interesting bodge job but its gives a potent weapon for 40k, I wonder if it will become a more refined weapon going forward.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by NickC »

Jdam wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 21:44
Phil Sayers wrote: 02 Feb 2023, 13:51 It is heavily rumoured that the US are about to announce providing Ground launched SDBs. Apparently some have been manufactured already so those could be a quick transfer but no idea as to how many.
https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... r-ukraine/

And there it is.
The GLSDB marries the GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb, a 250-pound precision-guided munition that costs $40,000 each, and the M26, a demilitarized rocket.
Interesting bodge job but its gives a potent weapon for 40k, I wonder if it will become a more refined weapon going forward.
Thought figure looked low, checked the USAF FY23 Missile Justification Book, Boeing SDB 1 $131 thousand each, the follow-on Raytheon SDB II $367 thousand each.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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NickC wrote: 04 Feb 2023, 11:07
Jdam wrote: 03 Feb 2023, 21:44
Phil Sayers wrote: 02 Feb 2023, 13:51 It is heavily rumoured that the US are about to announce providing Ground launched SDBs. Apparently some have been manufactured already so those could be a quick transfer but no idea as to how many.
https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... r-ukraine/

And there it is.
The GLSDB marries the GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb, a 250-pound precision-guided munition that costs $40,000 each, and the M26, a demilitarized rocket.
Interesting bodge job but its gives a potent weapon for 40k, I wonder if it will become a more refined weapon going forward.
Thought figure looked low, checked the USAF FY23 Missile Justification Book, Boeing SDB 1 $131 thousand each, the follow-on Raytheon SDB II $367 thousand each.
PS The GLSDB is a Boeing SDB I with addition of a Saab rocket motor

https://www.saab.com/products/ground-la ... bomb-glsdb

wargame_insomniac
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by wargame_insomniac »

I thought this was a good summary of recent and current fighting in various Ukranian Oblasts:


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mrclark303
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 05 Feb 2023, 15:46 I thought this was a good summary of recent and current fighting in various Ukranian Oblasts:


As thoughts turn to providing Western fast air to Ukraine, I do wonder if a solution might be found in the private sector.

One of the current private companies providing aggressor training could conceivably start a new business, buy 36 second hand F16's from the US for $ a piece and recruit F16 pilots from around the world.

A private company, headquartered in a neutral country providing air defence for Ukraine, might be the lateral move needed....
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Tempest414
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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mrclark303 wrote: 08 Feb 2023, 18:28
wargame_insomniac wrote: 05 Feb 2023, 15:46 I thought this was a good summary of recent and current fighting in various Ukranian Oblasts:


As thoughts turn to providing Western fast air to Ukraine, I do wonder if a solution might be found in the private sector.

One of the current private companies providing aggressor training could conceivably start a new business, buy 36 second hand F16's from the US for $ a piece and recruit F16 pilots from around the world.

A private company, headquartered in a neutral country providing air defence for Ukraine, might be the lateral move needed....
It would be seen for what it was a new Air America CIA front plus which country would station them as they would become a target

Phil Sayers
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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I wonder whether there could be some mileage in talking to countries (e.g Malaysia / Indonesia / Oman) about buying the armed Hawk derivatives we have sold them. The easiest way to give Ukraine some useful fixed wing aircraft would be to train them on our own Hawks and then provide armed versions for them to use. Very much the shallow end of the fast jet pool but that probably isn't a bad thing; particularly if we could quickly integrate Brimstone.

The main problem I can see (aside from likely high attrition rates in that AD environment) is that we do not really have anything we can provide that would replace what we are seeking to buy (assuming the counties in question could be persuaded to ruffle Russian feathers).

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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mrclark303 wrote: 08 Feb 2023, 18:28 As thoughts turn to providing Western fast air to Ukraine, I do wonder if a solution might be found in the private sector.

One of the current private companies providing aggressor training could conceivably start a new business, buy 36 second hand F16's from the US for $ a piece and recruit F16 pilots from around the world.

A private company, headquartered in a neutral country providing air defence for Ukraine, might be the lateral move needed....
Didn't they have to buy non-US F16s for some reason? Seem to remember they were Israeli jets.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Little J »

The Prime Minister saying that we are considering giving Ukraine fast air. What have we got to give???

Another question springs to mind, regardless of who gives them whatever aircraft type... How long would it take to retrain a pilot from Russian avionics to western? (in reference to that last question I remember seeing an "Air-crash Investigations" episode were a Russian crew crashed an Airbus because the captain got confused)

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mrclark303
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by mrclark303 »

Tempest414 wrote: 08 Feb 2023, 18:45
mrclark303 wrote: 08 Feb 2023, 18:28
wargame_insomniac wrote: 05 Feb 2023, 15:46 I thought this was a good summary of recent and current fighting in various Ukranian Oblasts:


As thoughts turn to providing Western fast air to Ukraine, I do wonder if a solution might be found in the private sector.

One of the current private companies providing aggressor training could conceivably start a new business, buy 36 second hand F16's from the US for $ a piece and recruit F16 pilots from around the world.

A private company, headquartered in a neutral country providing air defence for Ukraine, might be the lateral move needed....
It would be seen for what it was a new Air America CIA front plus which country would station them as they would become a target
I don't know really, once we agreed to send western MBT's, that horse has already bolted....

In a slightly different way it's nothing new, both Russian and Chinese pilots (cough, advisors, cough) took an active role in the Korean and Vietnam wars.

I say it's time to double down on the Russians and only older model AMRAAM and Aim9M equipped F16's can really make the difference.

Our (alleged) sticky beak at at a shot down SU35's avionics last year, proved the Russians are still someway behind the curve regarding technology and suitability equipped F16's flown by well trained Western pilots would take an unsustainable toll of the Russians.

Russian aircraft losses would dramatically increase and they would come to see that their Ukrainian adventure is unwinnable and unsustainable, militarily and politically.

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mrclark303
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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RunningStrong wrote: 08 Feb 2023, 19:11
mrclark303 wrote: 08 Feb 2023, 18:28 As thoughts turn to providing Western fast air to Ukraine, I do wonder if a solution might be found in the private sector.

One of the current private companies providing aggressor training could conceivably start a new business, buy 36 second hand F16's from the US for $ a piece and recruit F16 pilots from around the world.

A private company, headquartered in a neutral country providing air defence for Ukraine, might be the lateral move needed....
Didn't they have to buy non-US F16s for some reason? Seem to remember they were Israeli jets.
I think it was mainly because the Israelis had withdrawn their F16A fleet, providing the necessary airframes and stores inventory and the US agreed to the sale to a US private contractor.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Little J wrote: 08 Feb 2023, 20:42 The Prime Minister saying that we are considering giving Ukraine fast air. What have we got to give???

Another question springs to mind, regardless of who gives them whatever aircraft type... How long would it take to retrain a pilot from Russian avionics to western? (in reference to that last question I remember seeing an "Air-crash Investigations" episode were a Russian crew crashed an Airbus because the captain got confused)
Basically, we have nothing to give....

But, procuring ex Israeli or second hand US/European F16's 'for them' is perfectly possible, with a US green light.

I would go the private military company route, as it's the fastest way of getting the capability in country.

The Russians are using the 'private sector', so big boys games, big boys rules as they say ....

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Enigmatically »

I think we have some Tornados that could be made airworthy reasonably easily. Not many and not ideal but seems the most likely to me

inch
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by inch »

Think whatever they give or get to give , wondering if they thinking fixing storm shadow to it ?,mmh maybe old tornado for strike role , but in reality unrealistic again,like people have said we are a totally limited tbh , don't think RAF would want to let them have a squadron of older T1 typhoon,we just don't have anything to spare ,our air force is so small now that even a few aircraft would like the tanks we've given be a major Major strain on our air force, unless they going to strap a few storm shadows to a few old red arrows hawks,I think the only thing we can give is a few nice words on supplying fighters ,plus aren't we supposed to be struggling to train enough fighter pilots for ourselves never mind training Ukrainians,I just don't see what this is working up to,it's totally unfeasible in my eyes , although I would love to be able to do it for Ukraine and it would be the right thing to do ,plus yet again a politician promising help and equipment to Ukraine but still not willing to increase the defence budget,total utterly madness, ok do one but do the other to compensate FFS

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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The best i think we could do is to buy aircraft to donate. F-16's would be the most abundant, but i think the Gripen would best suit their situation.

To play fantasy fleet for a second, if we still had a fleet Jag's in (near) airworthy condition, i think they would have been made available...

Phil Sayers
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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I still think that providing armed Hawks would be a decent interim step while working on F-16s / Gripens for the future.

Ideally, we could get hold of some of the Hawk 200 series that have an F-16 radar and are already cleared for Amraam, Asraam and Paveway 2. If we could quickly add Brimstone then even better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_A ... e_Hawk_200

If Hawk 200 aren't available there are still many, many other Hawk derivatives in service around the World. Not going to be able to go toe to toe with Russia's latest jets and would likely suffer a lot of losses in that AD environment (although the same could also be said to a degree for F-16s etc) but they would be a nimble, small target and equipped with 2 x triple racks for Brimstone could wreck Russian armour columns.

Far from an ideal solution I know but the quickest and easiest way to add a significant punch to the Ukrainian AF while politically smoothing the route to more advanced types.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Phil Sayers wrote: 09 Feb 2023, 13:49

Far from an ideal solution I know but the quickest and easiest way to add a significant punch to the Ukrainian AF while politically smoothing the route to more advanced types.
That was pretty much my rationale for the Tornados. A small set could be made available quickly and then (like UK agreeing to send C2s) that might open the gates to others doing the same.

And I think we could get a smal number (<10) of Tornados more quickly than we could buy back Hawks, and they would be more capable.
Especially as they have been integrated with Storm Shadow so that would give the stand-off range as well
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Enigmatically wrote: 09 Feb 2023, 13:53
Phil Sayers wrote: 09 Feb 2023, 13:49

Far from an ideal solution I know but the quickest and easiest way to add a significant punch to the Ukrainian AF while politically smoothing the route to more advanced types.
That was pretty much my rationale for the Tornados. A small set could be made available quickly and then (like UK agreeing to send C2s) that might open the gates to others doing the same.

And I think we could get a smal number (<10) of Tornados more quickly than we could buy back Hawks, and they would be more capable.
Especially as they have been integrated with Storm Shadow so that would give the stand-off range as well
Plenty of Tornados from allies that could be donated too, if we could break that ceiling by donating ours....as we did with the Challengers...
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SW1
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by SW1 »

You do realise tornado left RAF service 4 years ago!! German bought most of the spares about as likely to be offered as sea harriers :shifty:

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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What did we do with those old Harriers and Sea Harriers?! :mrgreen:

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Enigmatically »

SW1 wrote: 09 Feb 2023, 17:41 You do realise tornado left RAF service 4 years ago!! German bought most of the spares about as likely to be offered as sea harriers :shifty:
I think we have a small number at Honington, hence the suggestion. Not sure about others

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