The war in Ukraine

Discuss current, historical or potential future conflicts around the world.
SW1
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by SW1 »

Timmymagic wrote: 12 May 2022, 17:09
SW1 wrote: 12 May 2022, 16:55 Apparently brimstone ground launcher in Ukraine
Bet its the aircraft triple rack mounted on the frame under all that...
Possibly I’m sure we will get round to doing something similar for the army here in about 2035…

Timmymagic
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Timmymagic »

bobp wrote: 12 May 2022, 17:16 This looks like a training exercise. Interested to know if these missiles are aimed at single or multiple targets.
Definitely training in Ukraine, no way you'd have personnel surrounding the launcher like that in the UK. It will definitely be multiple targets, they wouldn't waste 3 precious missiles on a trial with just the 1, suspect they won't be wasting many in trials or training at all...far too valuable and needed at the front.

wargame_insomniac
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by wargame_insomniac »

SW1 wrote: 12 May 2022, 17:21
Timmymagic wrote: 12 May 2022, 17:09
SW1 wrote: 12 May 2022, 16:55 Apparently brimstone ground launcher in Ukraine
Bet its the aircraft triple rack mounted on the frame under all that...
Possibly I’m sure we will get round to doing something similar for the army here in about 2035…
The phrase "necessity is the mother of invention" comes to mind.
Something we used to do well by and pay heed to.
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Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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A good article on the BBC regarding how the war in Ukraine is changing the face of modern warfare.


leonard
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by leonard »

Have anybody sean this !!!! We can call it the slaughter of a BTG at the river wen you caunt the Russian Army losses it is frightening
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Jdam
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Jdam »

How long can the Russians sustain these losses?

SW1
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Timmymagic
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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Looking increasingly likely that the UK is going to send 40 x L118 Light Gun 105mm to the Ukrainian's...see my post in the L118 thread...

Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

Good news. we should also send them the thirty odd unmodified M270 MLRS, the ones that cannot use the guided rockets, as well.

Jdam
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Jdam »

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/26/poli ... index.html

Potentially even more fire power going to Ukraine.

Phil Sayers
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Phil Sayers »

To state the obvious sending M270 MLRS and HIMARS in large quantities (by this I mean say 70 M270 and 30 HIMARS along with tens / hundreds of thousands of munitions) would be an absolute game changer. They could either saturate any Russian advance or else strike deep and with precision key targets in the Russian rear all while staying well back from the frontlines themselves.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

We don't need to look back to Aleppo
... every day what the other 'party' is doing is there for everyone :crazy: to see.

For God's sake: level the tables, so that the moral upper-hand can prevail
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Re: The war in Ukraine

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IF the US President is being told that the M270 has a range of hundreds of miles he is not being told all the facts. Yes there is the long range Missiles that can be fired from the launcher but Ukraine seems more interested just in the standard 70km+ rockets, possibly with some of the guided variety. I also do not understand the worry that Ukraine may use any heavy weapons sent to engage targets in Russia itself. IF there is a major weapons storage site within range over the border it should be a legitimate target, we cannot tie Ukraine's hand on issues like this after what Russia has done to Ukraine. With how things are going in the Donbass, Ukraine needs heavy weapons like MKLS now not next month. Last month the US was slapping sitelf onteh back after Russia's retreat form the Ukrainian capital, claiming the use of Javelin was a key component of the victory. Now thigs are looking bleak again they are getting scared once again. Chalk one up to Putin's bluff!!.

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by sunstersun »

Lol, I highly doubt the range or fire into Russia is a serious concern. That's just an easy political excuse like training, when in reality it's probably something like lets beat Russia with the lowest amount of escalation.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the MLRS approval being in response to recent Russian battlefield success.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

sunstersun wrote: 28 May 2022, 08:40 response to recent Russian battlefield success.
Just that these responses trail the events by 2-3 weeks. Kiev and Kharkov clearly have been Ukrainian successes. Donbas is a stalemate where the Russian ' materiel' as in indiscriminate use of HE grinding their way through is starting to work (?).
- the South (Ukrainian army can't be everywhere) was a fairly easy take, early on... and I hope there won't be any nasty surprises 'out of the blue' there
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inch
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by inch »

Sometimes I really do think the west is trying to let Russia win it's eastern Ukraine Territory narrative objectives so Putin can claim a victory,why else would biden and other EU leaders ,macron etc be so shit slow sending or MRLS and anything else the Ukrainians need ,the word is fucking useless ,sorry for the bad language

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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I wonder if NATO could form a sort of Volunteer "Flying Tiger" outfit, equipped with Typhoons, Ukrainian roundels and Tiger mouths on the Air Intake or under the Cockpit wrapping around each side. Would that be escalation enough. Of course any Pilots and support Crew would be private citizens at teh time and the Aircraft would probably Tranche 1 planes donated along with a support package paid for by Ukraine from the financial help they are being given. Have the three Squadrons initally fly no further east then the Dnieper River, freeing up Ukrainians planes to concentrate on contesting the airspace over the east segment of their country.

Just another wacky thought. :D

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

We do not hear much abt the Foreign/ Intl Legion there. Have they been integrated into Ukrainian units?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: The war in Ukraine

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From what I understand is the Norman Brigade(French Canadians) is basically trolling, while the Foreign Legion has been kinda useful. I also understand there's several US/UK US/France spec op teams operating right now. No surprise the America is taking a lead role there.

Georgians, Belarussians and Chechnyas have been super. Some guys are integrated with UA and some are operating in independent units like Mr. Grant.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The intl bdes in Spanish Civil War were, may be, less diverse than the ones now in Ukraine... but at least we understand more about fascism and democracy than we did then (telling them apart etc.)

20 000 was a number given at some point (may have included lots of Ukrainians going back there)... anyone got an update?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Going back a tad more to the past, and as one could guess, this is from the mentioned publication:
" When Leon Trotsky wrote for Foreign Affairs in 1934, he was living in exile, having been driven from the Soviet Union after Joseph Stalin took control. In Europe, Mussolini had been in power in Italy for more than a decade, Adolf Hitler had become chancellor of Germany the year before, and the whole continent—as well as the United States—was suffering the effects of a severe economic depression.



In his essay “Nationalism and Economic Life,” Trotsky described an interwar Europe trapped by inward-looking capitalist systems that had failed to keep pace with the demands of a global economy. It was a short road from economic nationalism to fascism, he argued, and fascism would lead to “nothing except ruin.” ["]
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Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

A potted political history by a man sent to the salt mines for ten years, by Putin. In The Economist, by invitation (ie. in OpEd style).

" The habit of impunity among thugs does not subside so quickly. And that means a worse war, an even bigger one, is likely.

Perhaps you do not believe it. But consider this: Mr Putin managed to increase his ratings when he came to office, in 1999, with the war in Chechnya.

He solved the problem of controlling his “interim president”, Dmitry Medvedev, by going to war with Georgia in 2008. Having gone to war on Mr Putin’s orders, Mr Medvedev was forced to abandon his own agenda of modernisation.

Mr Putin solved the problem of his ratings plunge in 2013-14 by seizing Crimea.

Now, the war in Ukraine dwarfs any gripes about a decade of economic decline. If he is allowed to take over Ukraine, the economy will continue to collapse, as a result of corruption and sanctions. A flood of coffins will return home to Russia, for the guerrilla war cannot be stopped. The mood of the population will continue to deteriorate. And in 2024, there will be elections."
- the only POV where I disagree is that Putin may have decided to 'go for broke' with Ukraine as he does not see (for reasons known to himself and only the closest circle) it as feasible to stand in 2024

The closing comment was

"What is likely to be Mr Putin’s solution? It will be another “special operation”.["]
- now, even a successor might be tempted to go for the tried-and-tested formula?
- hence, the Russian army should come out of Ukraine in a shape that will take 10 years to correct
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I thought it was a huge mistake by the Russian side to label the conflict a "Winter War" . As it
1. turned out not to be (the grass is already long out there)
2. the prognosis (on that basis) was not v good: I was betting on 2400 tanks & armoured vehicles gutted in 40 days (the Finns did that over 105 days), but
3. with more days (I was betting on a Egypt/ Israeli type of cease fire), the count is 50% higher, and the body count going with it horrific

Well, we will see if Russia wants to trade young men (the country is desperately short of any such) for a toll on the other side, men (older) women and children killed indiscriminately by artillery fire.
- a bad situation, only getting worse (if the Kremlin
inner circle continues to 'sit tight')
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Some of you may remember that part of the Versailles Treaty that set a limit of 100k on the German army (many other linits, too, but let me continue on this one).

One of the first things that Hitler did (when starting to expand the numbers) was to start train a professional NCO core
... Putin did the same. For the same reason: When the numbers had been drastically cut, officers (good ones, one can assume) were not fired, but relegated to do what NCOs would have done in 'the normal days'.

We hear of the 10+ Russian generals that have been killed on the front line. Heh-he... motivating the rank and file?

But we do not hear of the massacre of the younger ranks of officers that have to lead the not-so-filled-with-inspiration troops onto the next line of resistance.

They are, of course, professional soldiers. That is what they are expected to do. But the high ratios of officers in overall casualties are (as derived from the past) Israeli tank commanders (had to keep the hatch open, in their WW2 tanks, for a 360 view in desert warfare) and Finnish fire controllers (as the team leader, to be able to call fire had to be an officer.... so you can guess that when a position was abandoned, that team was the last to leave)
- I think, in both cases - and the Israeli stats relating to the 6D Sinai War - were about one in 7 KIA an officer
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: The war in Ukraine

Post by Lord Jim »

Key to the future is Ukraine's and many of its allies stance that Russia will not be allowed to keep any gains it had made since the end of February, and Sanctions etc will remain in place at least until Russia withdraws to the lines prior to the War. The fate of Crimea will depend on the state of Russia after thiols war ends, with the same for the Donbass. This area may de give an semi autonomous standing but still part of Ukraine with a UN peacekeeping force in place and a DMZ between the eastern part of the Donbass ad teh Russian Border, patrolled by the UN.

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