The war in Ukraine

[SW1]

That has been the trend for decades.

Another thing that has been a trend for about the last century is people claiming the death of the tank. Once we'd got a couple of decades and iterations in, we started to get "this time it's different" being added.

There are a couple of good videos on the subject recently up on YouTube, the one from "The Chieftain" is good, but they're all a good half-hour watches so I'll summarise some of the key points here:

Comparisons have been made with horse cavalry but these miss that it wasn't a weapon that made the horse obsolete, it was the availability of the motor vehicle that could do what horse cavalry could do (mobility) but better. The development of armoured motor vehicles was icing on the cake. With tanks there is no such alternative; How else can you provide mobility, protection and firepower?

The vulnerability of tanks to contemporary weapons is not a new thing. Tanks have always been vulnerable to the latest systems. NLAW is over a decade old, Javelin is pushing three decades old. If you blunder into defences equipped with the latest anti-tank equipment and then stop there you're bound to get hammered.

A good answer and I agree. But you ask how else can you provide mobility, protection and firepower. 1 and 3 of those are provided far more effectively by UAVs (especially when backed up by artillery etc) nowadays. Protection? I don't see a hell of a lot of protection by anything, but I'd choose a trench over a tank with the way things are

I think we need to remember a lot of time and money has gone into ATGW's over the last 30 + years drones have been under estimated but this will change now and drones will not have the freedom they have now meaning that there ability to spot for artillery and drop weapons will will also drop in performance as weapons to combat them come on line this in turn will free up the tank to carry on

Are u talking about the opposition ie Russia or a western armed force? Because despite the hype Russia is fighting in the same way they would have 40 years ago. So how long will it be before they field Nlos anti tank weapons, tank defensive system and counter drone tech, It’s the Russian army moving into Ukraine we/nato need to overmatch not the us army.
We will need to improve our defences and tactics to counter such system as they are proliferating.

[Tempest414]

That has been the trend for decades.

Another thing that has been a trend for about the last century is people claiming the death of the tank. Once we'd got a couple of decades and iterations in, we started to get "this time it's different" being added.

There are a couple of good videos on the subject recently up on YouTube, the one from "The Chieftain" is good, but they're all a good half-hour watches so I'll summarise some of the key points here:

Comparisons have been made with horse cavalry but these miss that it wasn't a weapon that made the horse obsolete, it was the availability of the motor vehicle that could do what horse cavalry could do (mobility) but better. The development of armoured motor vehicles was icing on the cake. With tanks there is no such alternative; How else can you provide mobility, protection and firepower?

The vulnerability of tanks to contemporary weapons is not a new thing. Tanks have always been vulnerable to the latest systems. NLAW is over a decade old, Javelin is pushing three decades old. If you blunder into defences equipped with the latest anti-tank equipment and then stop there you're bound to get hammered.

A good answer and I agree. But you ask how else can you provide mobility, protection and firepower. 1 and 3 of those are provided far more effectively by UAVs (especially when backed up by artillery etc) nowadays. Protection? I don't see a hell of a lot of protection by anything, but I'd choose a trench over a tank with the way things are

I think we need to remember a lot of time and money has gone into ATGW's over the last 30 + years drones have been under estimated but this will change now and drones will not have the freedom they have now meaning that there ability to spot for artillery and drop weapons will will also drop in performance as weapons to combat them come on line this in turn will free up the tank to carry on

Are u talking about the opposition ie Russia or a western armed force? Because despite the hype Russia is fighting in the same way they would have 40 years ago. So how long will it be before they field Nlos anti tank weapons, tank defensive system and counter drone tech, It’s the Russian army moving into Ukraine we/nato need to overmatch not the us army.
We will need to improve our defences and tactics to counter such system as they are proliferating.

Well I was talking in general but if I take this post as a one off and if Russia do not have the same ATGW capability then NATO MBT's don't have the same worries as Russian tanks and there for NATO MBT's remain as valid today as they were 40 years ago

[SW1]

Yes indeed but as ours has moved on and it’s been shown we don’t need tanks to stop the Russian army advancing our standoff systems keeps them on there side of the border.

[Phil Sayers]

This will make tanks an even more dangerous place to be in than they already are:

[TheLoneRanger]

This will make tanks an even more dangerous place to be in than they already are:

Excellent - this proves the value of owning your own intellectual property and infrastructure for weapons systems so that you can decide to do things like this... rather than asking Germany for permission - only to be told "no."

[Lord Jim]

So does anyone know if this "Ground Launched" Brimstone will have a man in the loop capability or if it still has the "Swarm Attack" mode the original Brimstone was first designed with?

[Phil Sayers]

Ukraine using TB2 drones to strike two Russian Raptor class patrol vessels near the famous Snake Island, the second one was manoeuvring at the time it was hit:

[whitelancer]

Any idea what weapon they used?

[Phil Sayers]

Any idea what weapon they used?

Not seen anything on that but the usual MAM-L seems most likely.

[whitelancer]

Not seen anything on that but the usual MAM-L seems most likely.

Thanks for that.

[SW1]

[Tempest414]

So in real terms we back to the 80's however we need to look long and hard at Russia's faults as well as Ukraine's great efforts before we claim a new way of warfare

[sunstersun]

So in real terms we back to the 80's however we need to look long and hard at Russia's faults as well as Ukraine's great efforts before we claim a new way of warfare

3 x the drone budget, with a lot of it focused on low altitude(underestimated shown by this war)

No need to do fancy analysis or wargames.

Every 3 soldiers 1 should have a drone at this point.

[Lord Jim]

And don't forget you have to defend yourself against the other guy trying to do the same to you. UAS like the TB-2 are going to be selling like hot cakes for the next decade or so.

[Tempest414]

So in real terms we back to the 80's however we need to look long and hard at Russia's faults as well as Ukraine's great efforts before we claim a new way of warfare

3 x the drone budget, with a lot of it focused on low altitude(underestimated shown by this war)

No need to do fancy analysis or wargames.

Every 3 soldiers 1 should have a drone at this point.

drones are great for spotting and limit strike but this war has shown that more defence against drones is needed so 6 x the budget will be spent working out how to kill drones

If we get to a point where every 3rd soldier has a drone it has gone to far however a company should have drones

It is clear that Russia did not do enough fancy analysis or wargames before this war and have been court with there cocks out for it

Analysis Exercise analysis again anyone who fails to do this will lose ask Russia or Train hard fight easy

[sunstersun]

So in real terms we back to the 80's however we need to look long and hard at Russia's faults as well as Ukraine's great efforts before we claim a new way of warfare

3 x the drone budget, with a lot of it focused on low altitude(underestimated shown by this war)

No need to do fancy analysis or wargames.

Every 3 soldiers 1 should have a drone at this point.

drones are great for spotting and limit strike but this war has shown that more defence against drones is needed so 6 x the budget will be spent working out how to kill drones

If we get to a point where every 3rd soldier has a drone it has gone to far however a company should have drones

It is clear that Russia did not do enough fancy analysis or wargames before this war and have been court with there cocks out for it

Analysis Exercise analysis again anyone who fails to do this will lose ask Russia or Train hard fight easy

Obviously I was speaking in jest, but drones, drones, drones is the big takeaway here without any wargames or analysis.

It's sad thinking about the state of NATO ground AA, too hollowed out due to reliance on airplanes, but I don't think the F-22 or Typhoon is gonna be to useful against 500$ drones.

The issue with these drones is 3 fold. Hitting them is hard, finding them is hard, and hitting them economically is hard.

Jammers is a nonsense solution since the next logical step is autonomous capability.

I'm glad it's not my job to actually solve this problem and just shit post about it.

[Timmymagic]

The issue with these drones is 3 fold. Hitting them is hard, finding them is hard, and hitting them economically is hard.

Have a look at Dynetics solution...re-usable as well...

[sunstersun]

The issue with these drones is 3 fold. Hitting them is hard, finding them is hard, and hitting them economically is hard.

Have a look at Dynetics solution...re-usable as well...

I was thinking of good old Flak guns, but that's very very cool.

[Timmymagic]

So does anyone know if this "Ground Launched" Brimstone will have a man in the loop capability or if it still has the "Swarm Attack" mode the original Brimstone was first designed with?

No datalink so its essentially single mode Brimstone. MMW only, no SAL either.

Wouldn't be shocked if the ones supplied were some of the remaining RAF original Brimstone order adapted for the role which were single mode only.

[Timmymagic]

I was thinking of good old Flak guns, but that's very very cool.

Anduril have one as well...interesting method of dealing with a quadcopter...

https://www.anduril.com/capability/counter-uas/

[whitelancer]

Think First World War, if you have a new fangled flying machine spying on you, even dropping the odd bomb what do you do? You arm your own flying machines to shoot them down. Which leads to to them arming their flying machines..... Inevitably that's what will happen with drones. The interesting question is where it will end up? Drone wars with little human involvement and casualties, perhaps. Or maybe genocide committed by drones! Who knows!

[Lord Jim]

Hear on the radio that some commentator in the UK are asking for the UK to provide Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine!

[Timmymagic]

Hear on the radio that some commentator in the UK are asking for the UK to provide Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine!

Think that was originally from the Ukrainian Foreign Minister...pretty safe to ignore the request.

[Lord Jim]

Shame the BBC didn't. It was brought up on numerous news programmes throughout the day.

[Caribbean]

The Express is reporting that a Russian frigate has been hit, possibly sunk in the Black Sea
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/16 ... imir-putin

Edit: Also in UKDJ
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/russian ... an-attack/