Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

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Scimitar54
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Re: Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

Post by Scimitar54 »

In these islands, not “on this island”. :mrgreen:

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RichardIC
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Re: Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

Post by RichardIC »

~UNiOnJaCk~ wrote:As a practice slavery is rightly recognised as an abberation now, but you would be deeply, deeply mistaken if you allowed yourself to believe that the practice was widely viewed in the same light in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries.
Wrong. Simply wrong. It is the job of historians to look at the facts, study the primary material and develop hypotheses about contemporary morality based on their findings.

And it's clear there was growing revulsion as the 18th century progressed about the immorality of the slave trade.

Quakers were openly questioning the morality of slavery in the late 17th century. The growth of Methodism was strongly linked to abolitionist sentiment.

People knew it was wrong in increasing numbers.
Lord Jim wrote:If we apply todays morals to past events, how far or how recently do we go. Are we going to put all Bomber Command personnel on trail for war crimes, because the carpet bombing of civilians certainly classes as a war crime today.
It's certainly not unreasonable to ask whether Bomber Command carried out what amounted to war crimes. My view is it didn't. That's my considered view, but it's not the only one it's possible to hold.

However there are serious questions to be asked about the morality of the bombing campaign and how the participants felt about it. What awareness did bomber command crew have of conditions in the cities they were bombing? Did any of them regret, even in part, what they were doing? How have any of the re-evaluated the necessity of all or part of the bombing campaign post war? How have they dealt with their regret?

In February 1944 the Bishop of Chichester asked in the House of Lords:

"The question which I have to ask is beset with difficulties. It deals with an issue which must have it own anxieties for the Government, and certainly causes great searchings of heart amongst large numbers of people who are as resolute champions of the Allied cause as any member of your Lordships' House... I desire to challenge the Government on the policy which directs the bombing of enemy towns on the present scale, especially with reference to civilians, non-combatants, and non-military and non-industrial objectives."

So the morality of the bombing campaign was being questioned, in Britain, long before the end of the war.

And if you're not convinced by the Bishop of Chichester, how about Winston Churchill? Questions were openly asked in the House of Commons about the morality of the bombing of Dresden. Churchill himself wrote in the following month:

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed... The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy."

Many historians have since questioned, legitimately, whether the bombing of Dresden was a war crime. I don't think it was.

And Bomber Command crew were denied a campaign war medal until very recently because why?

You two are without doubt apologists for the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. You seem to be doing it because you feel some form of calling to oppose what you perceive as the re-writing of history. But you are actually the revisionists who are trying to rewrite to do the rewriting.

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Tempest414
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Re: Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

Post by Tempest414 »

RichardIC wrote:Many historians have since questioned, legitimately, whether the bombing of Dresden was a war crime. I don't think it was.
If there is a war crime to be looked at over Dresden it would be why the US army air corps bombed it the next day

Dresden was a perfect storm it was a clear night with light winds at 15,000 ft + which allowed 80% + of the bomber stream to find the target the fire storm which came of the bombing was down to gusting winds at close to ground level and the lay out of the city Bomber command nor it crews could of know the out come we also need to remember this was not the first time Dresden had been hit in the war and at the time of the bombing in question it was an important rail head to the East front for both troops and kit

~UNiOnJaCk~
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Re: Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

RichardIC wrote:Wrong. Simply wrong. It is the job of historians to look at the facts, study the primary material and develop hypotheses about contemporary morality based on their findings.
Sure, if that is the stated parameters of a particular historical study, fine.

The key word is "contemporary" however. No credible historian would seek to impose a 21st Century moral order on the past however. If you do that you are no longer trying to understand the past, you are attempting to play as the moral arbiter of it. That's a game no one wins. It's fruitless as a line of historical enquiry. In fact it is largely antithetical to understanding of history in all but the most limited of circumstances.

A credible historian would be very careful in making any such judgements of that nature and would do well to see that they are caveated and couched in the language of factual enquiry, not emotion.
And it's clear there was growing revulsion as the 18th century progressed about the immorality of the slave trade.

Quakers were openly questioning the morality of slavery in the late 17th century. The growth of Methodism was strongly linked to abolitionist sentiment.

People knew it was wrong in increasing numbers.
I would politely suggest you re-read my second paragraph again. Such sentiment existed in small, relatively fringe pockets, but it was far from the prevailing opinion until well into the 19th Century.

Lord Jim
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Re: Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

Post by Lord Jim »

RichardIC wrote: But you are actually the revisionists who are trying to rewrite to do the rewriting.
Well we truly have gone down the "Rabbit hole", haven't we. I started this thread to simply point out that many people nowadays see the British Empire as an institution of evil, with the slave trade being one of many crimes against humanity carried out in its name.

But whilst the re is no doubt that the slave trade WAS abhorrent, Britain's Empire was also responsible for ending the world wide slave trade, not just by compensating land owners in the West Indies but also using the Royal Navy to blockade the coast of Africa and hunt down any vessels involved in the trade. This cost the lives of many naval seamen as well as costing the Treasury a substantial amount and also the Royal Navy substantial resources, but the majority feeling in Britain was that the trade must be ended.

I am not a revisionist I am simply showing that there is far more to the story of slavery than just painting The British Empire as a bunch of evil Slave traders. The revisionists are those who only want to accept one side of the story as it suits their modern day political and moral position.

jedibeeftrix
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Re: Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

Post by jedibeeftrix »

On the general topic - thought this was rather good:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/pres ... -1.4505624

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Lord Jim wrote:People do realise that the slave trade in Africa existed centuries before the Europeans became involved don't they, and continues on the east coast of Africa for years after despite the Royal Navy's best efforts.
If the answer was to be drawn from a random poll (and not from amongst the contributers), it would be 90% "no".
Lord Jim wrote:Why do people who are second or third generation families who originally emigrated in the 50's and 60's so obsessed with events nearly 200 years ago. Discrimination is a crime and had been for decades and so should not be happening now. We are all British on this island and should share the same values and morals. There should be zero negative discrimination just as there should be zero positive discrimination.
Quite a good question
... another good one for a wide poll (rather than asking the BBC?)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Somebody else thought that 'contextualising' polls might be useful; not exactly the questions I proposed above (but a good 'start' anyway :) )
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... nl_today_4

Didn't @D suggest that I would find like-minded people @The FT and @ The Economist?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

jedibeeftrix wrote: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/pres ... -1.4505624
@jedi found such a source
"Nigel Biggar is the Regius professor of moral and pastoral theology at the University of Oxford"
that I will now have to go and check what the Archbishop of Canterbury says on the topic
... that would exhaust the steps, I think :think:

Nigel Biggar offers a treatise on 'othering' as part of the iron triangle
‘domination’, ‘othering’ and ‘violence’. Food for thought.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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SKB
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Re: Rewriting history, "Britain's Empire of Evil".

Post by SKB »

Royal Navy's Anti-Slavery Patrols - The West Africa Squadron

(Drachinifel) 1st December 2018
Title says it all really, we look at something that was definitely worth doing, which really should have been done much sooner.

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