Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 29 Jan 2023, 09:21
Lynx at the time, so WildcatPoiuytrewq wrote: ↑29 Jan 2023, 08:59Which helicopter? A Wildcat is too large for the dimensions of the structure in the concept.
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Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Page 15 of 23
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 29 Jan 2023, 09:59
Nope, It won’t fit in the structure with the dimensions in the concept.
A Wildcat needs at least a 4m clearance so the rotor head is clear but even this would not be considered suitable for maintenance clearances. The containers aft of the telescopic hanger are 2.6m high. The hanger door would therefore need to be at least 1.5 containers high to allow a Wildcat to fit. It’s pretty clear that isn’t possible.
Best leave it there and move on.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 29 Jan 2023, 10:02
The original design clearly stated that the hangar would support a Lynx. If you are saying that the Wildcat needs more space, I’m not aware so happy to concede on that point.Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑29 Jan 2023, 09:59Nope, It won’t fit in the structure with the dimensions in the concept.
A Wildcat needs at least a 4m clearance so the rotor head is clear but even this would not be considered suitable for maintenance clearances. The containers aft of the telescopic hanger are 2.6m high. The hanger door would therefore need to be at least 1.5 containers high to allow a Wildcat to fit. It’s pretty clear that isn’t possible.
Best leave it there and move on.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 29 Jan 2023, 10:05
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 29 Jan 2023, 10:26
The Venator 90 is a good looking concept but BMT have moved on to the Venari 85 concept which I would like to see a 100 meter version of with a full hangar
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 29 Jan 2023, 15:14
There are future costs that would put your "cost effective" in doubt. If the UK design teams are not kept busy they won't be there when you want to design the T83.Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑28 Jan 2023, 17:29 A second batch of modified T31s is the most cost effective Frigate option which is why this remains the most likely outcome IMO.
See Astutes for how expensive that gets.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 29 Jan 2023, 15:17
And there's the not insignificant problem of making the Type 31 meet the Type 32 requirements. That might cause such a design change it wouldn't be much different from designing a brand new warship.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 29 Jan 2023, 15:53
Fair point but if the Frigate plan had of stayed at thirteen T26’s the ultimate outcome for the design teams would have remained the same or worse than the current T31/T32 direction of travel.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 29 Jan 2023, 16:22
That structure isn't the hangar itself - IIRC from the original descriptions, that was a structure to which a telescopic hangar could be attached if wanted. Otherwise the area could just be used as a flight deck. I suspect that one of the reasons the "design" never got anywhere was because the clearances weren't really there. Stretch it to 105m and I think it might be a reasonable concept, though it would overlap with what a lot of people have been proposing for a River Batch 3Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑29 Jan 2023, 09:59 The containers aft of the telescopic hanger are 2.6m high. The hanger door would therefore need to be at least 1.5 containers high to allow a Wildcat to fit. It’s pretty clear that isn’t possible.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 29 Jan 2023, 16:29
I agree. I looked at it in detail a few years ago and found all kinds of things that were suboptimal.
The main issue was that it was just too small.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Jan 2023, 10:21
May I point out that you have the authors of the remarks you replied to, ass about face.jonas wrote: ↑28 Jan 2023, 14:29I would still prefer BMT to have a crack at the T32 design. I was not impressed overall by BAE,s T31 effort, and no doubt the would be prone to gold plating it.Ron5 wrote: ↑27 Jan 2023, 16:31 How are they going to create a "competition" to build them?
Mind you the "competition" for the T31's was a complete farce.
Personally I favor the idea of Bae designing the T32's and Babcock's doing the build. A little bit like CVF. So maybe a separate design "competition" and then the build "competition".
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 12:12
Opinions, what will T32 be ( Inspired by the poll at the top of T31 thread)
1. T31 B2
2. T31 B2 to full £400M buget / upgraded
3. BAE adaptable frigate
4. A different frigate
4. "sloop"
5. Additional MCM OSV (In addition to the 4 already planned)
1. T31 B2
2. T31 B2 to full £400M buget / upgraded
3. BAE adaptable frigate
4. A different frigate
4. "sloop"
5. Additional MCM OSV (In addition to the 4 already planned)
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 12:48
It will be a T-31 B2 my hope is that it would be 3 x T-31+ with the batch 1's be upgraded to Plus standard and 3 new OPV's to replace the B1 Rivers giving the RN
6 x T-45
8 x T-26
8 x T-31
8 x OPV
If any money left I would like to see the OPV's get the new French UAV
6 x T-45
8 x T-26
8 x T-31
8 x OPV
If any money left I would like to see the OPV's get the new French UAV
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 13:04
Agree on the point of B2 being of a higher standard (say £350m per ship) and the B1 being upgraded to said standard. given 400-350=50, 50x10= 500, i would rather like that money to go to more MCM/OPV OSV, at say 70m per ship. that would provide 7 ships in addition to the existing plan of 4 (though 3 of them 'have funding' source is a guy quoting the GAO equipment plan on Navy lookout). Lets dream on!Tempest414 wrote: ↑30 Apr 2023, 12:48 It will be a T-31 B2 my hope is that it would be 3 x T-31+ with the batch 1's be upgraded to Plus standard and 3 new OPV's to replace the B1 Rivers giving the RN
6 x T-45
8 x T-26
8 x T-31
8 x OPV
If any money left I would like to see the OPV's get the new French UAV
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 13:37
If there be £3Bn (in 2022 price), I prefer it to be 3 more T26 (£800M x3 = £2.4Bn), and 2 more T31 (as is, £300M x2 = £600M).
If £2.5Bn, I prefer it to be 2 more T26 (£800M x2 = £1.6Bn), and 3 more T31 (as is, £300M x3 = £900M).
If £2Bn, I prefer it to be 2 more T26 (£800M x2 = £1.6Bn), and 1 more T31 (as is, £300M) and slightly up-arming existing T31 (£100M).
If £1.5Bn, I prefer it to be 1 more T26 (£800M), and 2 more T31 (£300Mx2 = £600) and slightly up-arming existing T31 (£100M).
If £1.2Bn, I prefer it to be 1 more T26 (£800M), and 1 more T31 (as is, £300M) and slightly up-arming existing T31 (£100M)
If £1Bn, I prefer it to be 1 more T26 (£800M), and up-arming existing T31 (with £200M).
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 14:08
Scrap it before it costs any money. It will cost £2.5bn plus. Much better uses for that money (if it even exists.)
- Build 8x T31GPs, 57mm, 2x 40mm, 24 CAMM, 8x NSM and add 2150. Budget £1.75bn for the 3 extra hulls plus upgrades for original 5 hulls.
- Build 5 High Capacity OPVs based on a UK optimised Vard Series 7 313. Budget £625m.
- Use the £125m saved for other priorities.
Build the 5x HiCap OPVs at Rosyth immediately after the initial 5x T31 hull are complete. Build the 3 remaining T31s after the OPVs. That will keep Rosyth busy until 2035/2036. After that Rosyth can build the RB2 replacements until 2040 when RN should be ready for the T32s to commission around 2045.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 14:27
That doesn’t make sense, don’t stop start a production run, the hardest thing to do is get the production up and running and into service, just keep going building type 31s.Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑30 Apr 2023, 14:08Scrap it before it costs any money. It will cost £2.5bn plus. Much better uses for that money (if it even exists.)
- Build 8x T31GPs, 57mm, 2x 40mm, 24 CAMM, 8x NSM and add 2150. Budget £1.75bn for the 3 extra hulls plus upgrades for original 5 hulls.
- Build 5 High Capacity OPVs based on a UK optimised Vard Series 7 313. Budget £625m.
- Use the £125m saved for other priorities.
Build the 5x HiCap OPVs at Rosyth immediately after the initial 5x T31 hull are complete. Build the 3 remaining T31s after the OPVs. That will keep Rosyth busy until 2035/2036. After that Rosyth can build the RB2 replacements until 2040 when RN should be ready for the T32s to commission around 2045.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 14:34
So do T32? great incite. And who said it would cost £2.5bn plus?? T31 has a budget of £2bn and will only (hopefully, and is on course to) take up £1.35bn.Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑30 Apr 2023, 14:08Scrap it before it costs any money. It will cost £2.5bn plus. Much better uses for that money (if it even exists.)
- Build 8x T31 ....
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 14:59
How many do you intend tying up due to a lack of crew?
If Rosyth is to survive it will have to chop and change between classes in the most efficient manner possible.
If Rosyth just keeps building ever more T31s they will just end up getting sold to other nations unless RN raises the overall headcount.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 15:30
I don’t intend to tie any up. After this 5 is finished I’d start another 5 on slightly longer time build schedules unless foreign buyers can be found at which case production can be slightly higher consider it kind of low rate production that could be accelerated added to later if required. To me it should be a class of 10. The RN wouldn’t have type 23 gp frigates, hunts, sandowns , or rivers left all ship manning from those classes could support a class of 10 such vessels. Iterate and continue. Along with a handful of RFA manned converted offshore vessels like those currently purchased off the oil market should cover most requirements.Poiuytrewq wrote: ↑30 Apr 2023, 14:59How many do you intend tying up due to a lack of crew?
If Rosyth is to survive it will have to chop and change between classes in the most efficient manner possible.
If Rosyth just keeps building ever more T31s they will just end up getting sold to other nations unless RN raises the overall headcount.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 15:45
The only reason for stopping after the first 5 T-31's and then building some OPV's before going back to build 3 more Type 31 is this could fit better with New Zealand's planned replacement of there frigates meaning the batch 2 T-31 could be a run of 5 3 for the UK and 2 for NZ
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 16:32
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 16:49
There is clearly a crewing issue - the RN needs more people power, and to be able to reasonably reduce the number of crew in its ships and boats over the next 20-30 years. Without a solution, any additional vessels are paper strength only.
That said, in my view the direction is likely to be influenced by: (1) the technology that can be containerised for ASW and ASuW; and (2) the nature of the Future Air Dominance System (FADS) and its constituent parts.
For example, if FADS requires a number of drone based AEW vehicles, I would expect a number of vessels to house these vehicles (not just T83). Or, if a containerised 2087 sonar or successor is developed I would expect the facility to onboard this is embedded.
Of course, all up to budget priority.
That said, in my view the direction is likely to be influenced by: (1) the technology that can be containerised for ASW and ASuW; and (2) the nature of the Future Air Dominance System (FADS) and its constituent parts.
For example, if FADS requires a number of drone based AEW vehicles, I would expect a number of vessels to house these vehicles (not just T83). Or, if a containerised 2087 sonar or successor is developed I would expect the facility to onboard this is embedded.
Of course, all up to budget priority.
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 17:11
But each ship has £250M going to babcock, and 18m each for GFE (my understanding).donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑30 Apr 2023, 16:32I do not think so. 5 T31 as is needs £2Bn. No contingency. That's it, to my understanding.
"for an average production cost of £250 million per ship and an overall programme cost set to be £2 billion with £1.25 billion value to Babcock".
where is the other £650M / £130m per ship going?
Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]
Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 17:22
Yes.Dobbo wrote: ↑30 Apr 2023, 16:49 There is clearly a crewing issue - the RN needs more people power, and to be able to reasonably reduce the number of crew in its ships and boats over the next 20-30 years. Without a solution, any additional vessels are paper strength only.
That said, in my view the direction is likely to be influenced by: (1) the technology that can be containerised for ASW and ASuW; and (2) the nature of the Future Air Dominance System (FADS) and its constituent parts.
For example, if FADS requires a number of drone based AEW vehicles, I would expect a number of vessels to house these vehicles (not just T83). Or, if a containerised 2087 sonar or successor is developed I would expect the facility to onboard this is embedded.
Of course, all up to budget priority.
Notable though that T31 has nearly half the crew of a T23, or 54% to be exact.