Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

[SW1]

In the time frames of this frigate program setting Merlin as the defining helicopter type seems rather strange. It will be gone by then. Or The few remaining will not be anywhere near this ship type.

[donald_of_tokyo]

... 4 engine Absalon could be built for 300 million

Again, disagree. Adding another level of hull on T31 will make the ship top weight very large. RN center-of-gravity requirement will not allow it. Most of the Absalon's resource for "one-more deck" is spent to enable doubleing the engine.

Where can you find the huge space for two diesel engine and its intake and exhaust without sacrifysing other rooms? In the main engine room? Then, where all that machinery which was located there has gone? Disappeared? Impossible.

If you carefully look at the hull design, Iver Huiltfeldt class has a bit taller 01-deck than Absalon. See attached photo, from Naval Analysis. The height of the Absalon's flight deck is only 0.5-level higher than that of Iver Huitfeldt's. In other word, it is NOT 1-layer higher. I understand this was done to accommodate the "4 engines + all the misc-machinaries" in the space "2 engines + all the misc-machinaries" were used to be located.

[Ron5]

Bae quote that price for an ASF with no sensors or armament. Where do you get the 750-900m price for a bare T26?

Nowhere, you are right. I am just proposing an example. But, I do think, if T32 gets as expensive as T26, T32 will be simply canceled.

Bae's CEO indicated a much lower price for the T26 Batch 2.

Interesting. How much was it? Maybe I missed the info?

The Bae guy was quoted in a Daily Telegraph article that was discussed on this forum. Batch I: 800 mill to build, estimate that Batch II would be 20% cheaper.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2 ... d-warship/

[Ron5]

It was PAAMS that overrun its budget and Gordo refused to bail them out. So fewer ships and less protection for the UK. Yay.

The ships minus PAAMS were built for about 450 million each (going from memory ).

As you know, for Treasury, it doesn't matter. They prepared the money they initially promised = fitted within the long term budgetary foresight. It is MOD, who insisted on increasing it without cutting anything else. And, actually Treasurey agreed to increase it by 10% (if my memory works), and thus 6 hulls were secured. Then, Lehman shock came...

Politicians insisted on the European program that resulted in PAAMS despite the history that every joint program since the beginning of time has exceeded its budget. Yet when the inevitable cost overrun came along, a politician refused to cough up.

The RN wanted AEGIS at a known price.

[SD67]

As T32 is not funded yet and Treasury are looking for cuts the BAE proposal would be an easy way of kicking it into the long grass. More time needed for studies etc turn it into a low cost research project and push it to the right. Maybe a couple of export T31s for NZ come along to keep Rosyth ticking over.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Not seen this pic before

He is a very talented technical artist. Please remember that these images are not from Bae.

[Poiuytrewq]

As T32 is not funded yet and Treasury are looking for cuts the BAE proposal would be an easy way of kicking it into the long grass. More time needed for studies etc turn it into a low cost research project and push it to the right. Maybe a couple of export T31s for NZ come along to keep Rosyth ticking over.

Completely agree with this. I am expecting the T32 programme to go on the never-never.

I would expect the Bays and any number of PSVs to utilise the new MCM kit until financial conditions improve.

Exports for Rosyth would be fantastic, perhaps a couple of hulls for Ukraine in a few years time?

It will be interesting to see what Babcock come up with as the T32 concept has clearly been funded so should, in theory, run it’s course.

[Jake1992]

As T32 is not funded yet and Treasury are looking for cuts the BAE proposal would be an easy way of kicking it into the long grass. More time needed for studies etc turn it into a low cost research project and push it to the right. Maybe a couple of export T31s for NZ come along to keep Rosyth ticking over.

Completely agree with this. I am expecting the T32 programme to go on the never-never.

I would expect the Bays and any number of PSVs to utilise the new MCM kit until financial conditions improve.

Exports for Rosyth would be fantastic, perhaps a couple of hulls for Ukraine in a few years time?

It will be interesting to see what Babcock come up with as the T32 concept has clearly been funded so should, in theory, run it’s course.

I’m not sure this will be the case since Ben Wallace has stated he’ll walk if 3% of gdp isn’t agreed to and he could split the Tories if he walks.

With Babcock going down buying the T31 design could they end up buying something like the Damen Crossover. It seems to tick a lot of box’s and the XO139 looks very flexible.

[SD67]

Wallace has already been told he’s not getting three percent or any other commitment for that matter other than “a pledge to do my utmost to keep the country safe”, he hasn’t walked.

[Jake1992]

Wallace has already been told he’s not getting three percent or any other commitment for that matter other than “a pledge to do my utmost to keep the country safe”, he hasn’t walked.

When was he told this ? As far as Iv seen the cabinet was only formed yesterday and the financial budget pushed back to 17/11 so how can you say he’s been told you’ll get nothing and stayed ?

[SD67]

A mate who’s a London based Tory councillor, closely involved with one of the leadership campaigns. Neither Sunak nor Hunt are into defence and Wallace has come under a lot of pressure to suck it up for the sake of party unity. Hunts wife has her own program on chinese state tv and Infosys only closed down their Moscow office a month ago. 3% is history

[Jake1992]

A mate who’s a London based Tory councillor, closely involved with one of the leadership campaigns. Neither Sunak nor Hunt are into defence and Wallace has come under a lot of pressure to suck it up for the sake of party unity. Hunts wife has her own program on chinese state tv and Infosys only closed down their Moscow office a month ago. 3% is history

Then I’ll be very surprised is Wallace stays any length of time with how public he’s been about 3% and how he’s stayed out of party infighting until now. It’ll really bring in to question his integrity if he stays.

No increase is in effect deep cuts due to inflation and is now really going to bring in to question the UKs ability in defence at a time of major war in Europe and China rising up. Sunak will see us weekend in the worlds eyes, not a good look for the so called strong on defence Tories.

[SW1]

I don’t think setting percentages are a gd idea and I don’t think we need to spend 3% on the MoD to have a coherent and credible military capability.

[Poiuytrewq]

3% is history

Was 3% ever reality?

It was supposed to be 3% by 2030, a massive increase of which nobody appeared very clear on where it was to be spent.

Aiming for 2.5% (£75bn plus inflation) by 2026/2027 seems plausible. A decision could then be taken after the election in late 2024 to assess if adding the remaining 0.5% to the defence budget was still in the national interest.

[inch]

You've always got to contend with the facts that just about every MP has about as much care or knowledge about the real status of our defence capability as a blancmange in fact I'd give the blancmange the edge in the matter, if they cared in reality about the country defence I'd argue that they wouldn't have continually cut defence thru the years ,and even now when we basically are in conflict with Russia and they have been warned about the state of play in out forces,they will ALWAYS regard defence of the nation as way way way down the list of importance, all I can say is it won't matter till it matters and then you be in deep shit ,

[Lord Jim]

Just avoiding cuts would be a win for the MoD. The General Public have little interest is Defence caring far more for the things that actually affect their li8fe day to day such as the Health Service or Education.

What is worrying is that unlike previous eras, the time it takes to re-arm and bring the Armed Forces up to the job is going to be far greater then time will allow prior to fighting actually starting. Comparing the war tension in the 1930s to today with Russia, we would be increasing the size of our military as well as re equipping them with newer equipment. Present day that would mean cancelling any reductions in service personnel bringing existing kit up to full capability and accelerating what equipment programmes we could, Boxer for example.

As for the T-31, well that programme is still in its earliest stages with a design still to be developed as well as its role and capabilities. Any additional resources will go to programmes that are more advanced such as the T-26 and T-31 and possibly the FSS. The last is a problem as we currently only have one vessel in that class available, without which our Carrier Group will be severely restricted.

With the T-32 I see a conflict of issues regarding its capabilities. With the T-31 being build as a "Patrol" Vessels we need the T-32 tpo be a true combat escort is we wish to increase the size of our Fleets, rather than some new class of vessel to accept technologies that are still under development. I also think the current climate should shine a very bright light on the currently planned capabilities of the T-31, as well as the personnel number in all three Services. For example, as a bare minimum the T-31 should be fitted out to be able to carry at least twenty-four Sea Ceptor as well as some form of canister launched AShM. The last thing should be becoming a much higher priority for the Royal Navy as its current Harpoons are long in the tooth and all its Escorts need to carry a modern AShM sooner rather than later.

[jonas]

Not one person on here was privy to any conversation/deal, that was conducted between Sunak and Walliace prior to Wallace being confirmed in his post. All the normal never ending speculation on here.

[jedibeeftrix]

Was 3% ever reality?

No. It was internal party marketing.

And the current IR/DCM + the Ship Design/Build Strategy never depended on it.
This was all predicated on nothing more than the 0.5% budget increase per year. 0.5% increase of the budget itself, not as a share of GDP.

Notionally, we at about 2.2% of GDP, if we got to 2.4% that would keep the IR-refresh/DCM-rebuild on track.

[jedibeeftrix]

Seems to be growing pressure to kill the “Indo Pacific Tilt” direction outlined in the last SDR. It looks ideologically driven and now almost given with the financial problems and expected priorities of HMG. Bloody stupid and shortsighted IMO, when the global fallout from a China / Taiwan conflict will make Ukraine look a minor bar brawl. But still the chances of Russia invading NATO by land seems to be high enough for some BAOR fanatics to want to focus funds on a brigade or two sat on the continent.

Anyway, with no tilt the last remaining reason for the T31 as a global low threat escort dies. And the RN should be selling the 5 before they get into service to the likes of NZ, Poland, Chile etc. With the focus on NATO and North Atlantic, with reducing reliance on fossil fuels Kipion can go also, meaning that the RN could probably survive with the 6 T45 and 8 ASW T23s until the T26s come online. The two Wave class can be disposed of also. LRG(S) can be killed for a single LRG based around the two LPDs, two LSDs (one more to be sold) and a CVF (Argus no longer required).

This will hopefully secure enough cash to buy the 2 MRoSS, 2-3 SSSs and replacements for the 3 B1 Rivers (needed to monitor Russian “Research” vessels), properly kitting the T45/T23/T26s, with the hope of T32 jam tomorrow.

[Tempest414]

What we need type 32 to do is to work as a LRG escort now for me the big problem with the new BAE ASF is it WILL cost 500 million plus and I would not be shocked at 600 million as it is a clean sheet design this is based on the fact that type 31 with its limited aims and adapted from a proven design will cost 400 million

[Repulse]

What we need type 32 to do is to work as a LRG escort now for me the big problem with the new BAE ASF is it WILL cost 500 million plus and I would not be shocked at 600 million as it is a clean sheet design this is based on the fact that type 31 with its limited aims and adapted from a proven design will cost 400 million

It doesn’t have to, and we shouldn’t settle for a design that doesn’t match the requirement just because it’s cheap.

The price could be met if:
- the necessary facilities are in place (e.g. a frigate factory)
- a reasonable drumbeat is place say one vessel every 18 months
- the government commits to the full order upfront without the usual short term fiscal driven pauses / extensions
- the requirement is fixed
- the class is based on a @10 vessel order, which would mean ultimately the knee-jerk T31 class is replaced

It’s easy to blame BAE, and they are to blame historically in some areas, but fix the points above and there is a fighting chance.

[Tempest414]

I quite agree if BAE gets its act together or this new ship is built by Babcock in there new build shed and a order was placed for 10 ships you might just might get them for 400 million per ship

The point is at this time it is more likely to be a 5 ship order which will push it up to 550 to 600 million per ship

point 2 is that a Absalon might not be the best ship but it would do 95 % if not all of the job of BAE's ASF for 350 million and if on a 10 ship order it could just could get down to 250 million

This has been the the problem for years we get a out brake of shiney new kit syndrome we are told we can have it for 350 million and then it turns in 500 million

Now if BAE said they could build 5 of these ships for 400 million each on a firm fixed price now you would have my attention

[jedibeeftrix]

Seems to be growing pressure to kill the “Indo Pacific Tilt” direction outlined in the last SDR.

Not sure i buy the argument that Ukraine has somehow invalidated the tilt:



More further down-thread.

[jedibeeftrix]

I quite agree if BAE gets its act together or this new ship is built by Babcock in there new build shed and a order was placed for 10 ships you might just might get them for 400 million per ship

The point is at this time it is more likely to be a 5 ship order which will push it up to 550 to 600 million per ship

Welcome to the true iteration of the Hi/Lo fleet incoming?

14x T45/T26 replaced by 10x T83
10x T23GP/T31 replaced by 10x T32 (selling the T31 off shortly into their service life - as per the Shipbuilding Strategy)

Ta-da - a 20 escort fleet, clearly an uplift from the 18 we have today!

[Tempest414]

Moving over to the Future escort thread