Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

[Poiuytrewq]

If you want to replace MCMVs the T32 is overkill - by all means let’s have a hybrid frigate that is focused towards littoral and amphibious operations, and can also operate MCM drones - but if it’s having platforms to enable MCM operations in UK/Gulf waters then better to go for adapted cheap Fast Crew Vessels or OPVs.

If the purpose of the T31 and T32 is make them warships then equip them as such or stop pretending.

Fair enough but that all comes down to fleet balance.

My point is, the DS may be eluding to the fact that there will be no overall increase in numbers from where we are today with the MCMV’s included.

That statement does not necessarily imply that the T32 programme is an un-costed pipe dream or that RN will not be much more lethal and/or globally deployed than it has been in the last decade.

[Jensy]

Enlarged:


Two hangars, an open quarterdeck and dazzle paint!

Quite a sizeable ship. If the Chinook is to scale then this is easily in the 150-160m+ range. Presumably sized to fit the new assembly hall at Govan.

[Scimitar54]

How do you imagine that they will achieve that, when the new build hall is likely to already be occupied with 2 x T26 (or T83)? If BAE&S were to win a T32 build contract, it would be more likely that it would be sub-contracted to another yard. I suppose that (in theory) it could still be built in a similar fashion to the first three T26, but IMHO that is unlikely. Perhaps BAE&S woul consider a similar facility at Scotstoun?

[SKB]

*cough* Portsmouth

[wargame_insomniac]

Or could it be that as the T23’s and MCMV’s decommission the T31/T32 replacements slot in to roughly maintain the overall number of hulls.

A balanced fleet is much more important than overall numbers.

If you want to replace MCMVs the T32 is overkill - by all means let’s have a hybrid frigate that is focused towards littoral and amphibious operations, and can also operate MCM drones - but if it’s having platforms to enable MCM operations in UK/Gulf waters then better to go for adapted cheap Fast Crew Vessels or OPVs.

If the purpose of the T31 and T32 is make them warships then equip them as such or stop pretending.

The RN have standardised on the Atlas Elektronik SEA Class workboats for inshore work (largest of which is HMS Magpie at 37t and 18m length. The River B2 OPV's are 2,000t and 90.5m length. I definitely agree that RN needs something in between them to fulfull a variety of non-frontline missions.

Damen offers a whole protfoilio of Fast Crew Supply / Fast Supply Vessels from around 27m to I believe 73m. The RN bought the XV Patrick Blackett recently which is 720t and length 42m. Something around that 700-1000t size would be ideal for many RN non-frontline missions, so long as was designed to cope with rough seas (which I believe most FCS ships are.

If you look at the recent National Shipbuilding Strategy Refresh with a supposed 30 year shipbuilding plan, there are multiple such ships listed without any detailed spcifications. It is an ideal opportunity for UK to do something similar by selecting a variety of ship sizes and mission modules but all with common controls and systems, thus enabling great ease of repair and maintenance. In my opinion could see various UK departments needing maybe two dozen of such ships, with maybe half going to RN.

First I agree we need ships to carry out MCM operations in UK/Gulf waters. It may be the actual work is carried out by the small autonomous USV such as 11mm ARCIMS (Atlas Remote Capability Integrated Mission Suite) boats made by Atlas Elektronik (which I beleive were basis for subsequent SEA Class workboats). These USV would still need to deployed and controlled, either from ashore or for some sort of mothership.

We also need ships to undertake general policing of UK's and BOT's maritime Exclusive Economic Zone, including fisheries inspection, anti-smuggling / illegal immigration / anti-piracy patrols and assisating with HADR. We are reposnible for six territories in Caribbean, five in South Atlantic, two in Med, and two in Indo-Pacific. At the moment these are covered by River B2's. But for most of the routine low-intensity missions I believe we don't need ships as large or with as many crew -I think we need more smaller ships to cover the huge geographical areas involved.

Then you have the environmental surveying and policing of the BoT's Blue Belt Programme with marine protection across over 4 million square kilometres of ocean. That should nt come out of the RN Budget it is funded by the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office’s International Programme Fund. But the point is if we had a programme of various sized ships to carry out the above and other missions, and crucially the purchase and running costs (incl crew) of the respective ships were picked up by the various deprtments, then all departments including the RN would benefit from the programmes savimgs - it should be cheaper to spread costs over say 24 hulls than just 5-6.

This would be crucial to taking away the tier 3 low intensity missions away from the RN's dwindling escort fleet and allow them to focus fully on their warfighting duties.

[Repulse]

How do you imagine that they will achieve that, when the new build hall is likely to already be occupied with 2 x T26 (or T83)? If BAE&S were to win a T32 build contract, it would be more likely that it would be sub-contracted to another yard. I suppose that (in theory) it could still be built in a similar fashion to the first three T26, but IMHO that is unlikely. Perhaps BAE&S woul consider a similar facility at Scotstoun?

Perhaps they could speed up the T26 build with the new build hall - work on the T32 has little chance of starting till early 2030s.

[donald_of_tokyo]

A small correction...

... The RN bought the XV Patrick Blackett recently which is 720t and length 42m.

Damen FSC Patrol 4008 is not so heavy, it is a 300-400t ship.

FCS ships are designed to be "more comfortable" (less acceleration/shock) when steaming at rougher sea hitting the waves with so-so speed, but not sure how better their sea-keeping is. I guess they are better than normal hull there.

We also need ships to undertake general policing of UK's and BOT's maritime Exclusive Economic Zone, including fisheries inspection, anti-smuggling / illegal immigration / anti-piracy patrols and assisating with HADR. We are reposnible for six territories in Caribbean, five in South Atlantic, two in Med, and two in Indo-Pacific. At the moment these are covered by River B2's. But for most of the routine low-intensity missions I believe we don't need ships as large or with as many crew -I think we need more smaller ships to cover the huge geographical areas involved.

Understand your point, but world trend is the other way, going for (smaller number of) larger patrol vessels.

Damen FCS and 1000-2000t class OPVs will see very different operation profile. If there are number of safe ports/bases in the area, a few Patrol crafts (40-50m long) with ~18 crew will be a nice option, to provide relatively short range prompt response. If there are not so many such ports/bases, a 1000-2000t OPV steaming around will be better.

But the point is if we had a programme of various sized ships to carry out the above and other missions, and crucially the purchase and running costs (incl crew) of the respective ships were picked up by the various deprtments, then all departments including the RN would benefit from the program savings - it should be cheaper to spread costs over say 24 hulls than just 5-6.

Not sure. RN standard is in all cases too high = expensive for other agencies. Buying different classes for individual tasks might be cheaper. Used-ship market provides very cheap and capable hulls. Coordinating ship purchase is good, but it shall be not so strict.

[Repulse]

Understand your point, but world trend is the other way, going for (smaller number of) larger patrol vessels.

Doesn’t make it the right choice - most European navies for example have been starved of funds forcing them to maximise what they can get from a single platform even if sub optimal, also with the perceived reduced threat from Russia, most have been focused on global operations deploying from Europe. The world has changed IMO.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Understand your point, but world trend is the other way, going for (smaller number of) larger patrol vessels.

Doesn’t make it the right choice - most European navies for example have been starved of funds forcing them to maximise what they can get from a single platform even if sub optimal, also with the perceived reduced threat from Russia, most have been focused on global operations deploying from Europe. The world has changed IMO.

No big objection to your comment. But, how does it related to "more smaller patrol ships"? If global, 2000t class OPV popping around the globe will be a better choice? To cover "every days policing tasks", small boats are fine. I understand UK and BOT has many small police boats, of course much smaler than Damen 4008. I think there is no big need for a 40-m class patrol boat in policing tasks?

May be I missed your point?

[wargame_insomniac]

May be I missed your point?

As you know I rate the larger B2 OPVs highly, but small ships have always been a blind spot for the RN. Also, as you know most ships can have a secondary role as patrol craft, like the current MCM fleet.

The problem I see is that the RN is ok when it’s sub 12-15m, and ok when its 80-90m and absolutely obsessed with anything over 130m.

Having multi-role craft between 30-60m is exactly where most of the Littoral roles are within shallow waters that require kit and endurance.

[Jensy]

How do you imagine that they will achieve that, when the new build hall is likely to already be occupied with 2 x T26 (or T83)? If BAE&S were to win a T32 build contract, it would be more likely that it would be sub-contracted to another yard. I suppose that (in theory) it could still be built in a similar fashion to the first three T26, but IMHO that is unlikely. Perhaps BAE&S woul consider a similar facility at Scotstoun?

I did wonder if there's capacity at Govan, even with the new shipbuilding hall.

If ordered, Type 32 will need to dovetail between 26 and 83. As Repulse points out:

Perhaps they could speed up the T26 build with the new build hall - work on the T32 has little chance of starting till early 2030s.

Not much better if Rosyth is building FSSS immediately after Type 31 no.5.

Then, somewhat off topic, there's the question of whether Type 83 will fit into a 170m shed. Somewhat defeats the objective if the bow or stern still need to be attached outdoors. Our allies appear to be aiming at 180m long AAW destroyers. Not an issue when the linear 'Frigate Factory' at Scotstoun was proposed as 400m long.

[wargame_insomniac]

A small correction...

... The RN bought the XV Patrick Blackett recently which is 720t and length 42m.

Damen FSC Patrol 4008 is not so heavy, it is a 300-400t ship.

FCS ships are designed to be "more comfortable" (less acceleration/shock) when steaming at rougher sea hitting the waves with so-so speed, but not sure how better their sea-keeping is. I guess they are better than normal hull there.

We also need ships to undertake general policing of UK's and BOT's maritime Exclusive Economic Zone, including fisheries inspection, anti-smuggling / illegal immigration / anti-piracy patrols and assisating with HADR. We are reposnible for six territories in Caribbean, five in South Atlantic, two in Med, and two in Indo-Pacific. At the moment these are covered by River B2's. But for most of the routine low-intensity missions I believe we don't need ships as large or with as many crew -I think we need more smaller ships to cover the huge geographical areas involved.

Understand your point, but world trend is the other way, going for (smaller number of) larger patrol vessels.

Damen FCS and 1000-2000t class OPVs will see very different operation profile. If there are number of safe ports/bases in the area, a few Patrol crafts (40-50m long) with ~18 crew will be a nice option, to provide relatively short range prompt response. If there are not so many such ports/bases, a 1000-2000t OPV steaming around will be better.

But the point is if we had a programme of various sized ships to carry out the above and other missions, and crucially the purchase and running costs (incl crew) of the respective ships were picked up by the various deprtments, then all departments including the RN would benefit from the program savings - it should be cheaper to spread costs over say 24 hulls than just 5-6.

Not sure. RN standard is in all cases too high = expensive for other agencies. Buying different classes for individual tasks might be cheaper. Used-ship market provides very cheap and capable hulls. Coordinating ship purchase is good, but it shall be not so strict.

Apologies - those stats for XV Patrick Blackett were what I found online.

To clarify - I don't have a fixed size in mind for proposed Patrol Vessels. I had commnted that Damen had a whole portfolio of such ships up to I beleive 72m. You might be right that a 70m vessel might meet RN's needs more closely than 40m vessel. As you mentioned seakeeping in rough seas would be a key item of those needs. But it is building upon the familiar. The RN would have already had practical experience of such Damen FCS / FSV from running the XV Patrick Blackett and this would benefit them even if we selected a larger version.

The reason that I mentioned that I feel that RN (and other government departments need something smaller than River OPV's are:
1) Need for vessels that are less clearly a warship to fullfill more of the tier 3 low intensity policing and patrolling tasks
2) Smaller vessels should require less crew
3) When River B1's were used (incorrectly IMO) to assist in dealing with Channel refugees, they were found to be too big to cope.

I take on board your comment about ports. For example the Falkland Islands might suit better having the one larger vessel rather than two smaller ones - i.e. sticking with what we have in River B2 until one of the F31's is available to replace.

And when I am wanting for RN to look into smaller PV, by 2026 we should start seeing T31 Frigates coming into service. Now we currently have 4 T23 GP Frigates but that would reduce to 3 once Montrose is retired next year. So the first priority for T31's I beleive is to replace the remaining T23 GP's and then to replace the River B2's.

So for example in the Carribean and Mediterranean we might well have (in each area) one T31 Frigate to cover the higher profle RN missions in each region, and then a couple of these smaller PV's to cover the lower profile, more mundane patrolling and policing missions.

That would free up some of the River B2's to cover the higher risk policing and patrolling in areas such as the eastern Med, Gulf of Aden and Persian Gulf. This is nt for UK acting alone to patrol it' BOT's - rather working with international allies to ensure the freedom of shipping in crucial chokepoints and areas of increasing tension that might be in (localised) fighting. I have said before that I would lik the B2's to have SLIGHT uparming if required to do such riskier missions. (e.g. upgrade main gun to 40mm non-deck penetrating mount and add a couple of secondary gun mounts of either 12.7mm or 20mm - i.e. to give them greater lethality against small fast boats, helicopters and drones which are likely to be main threats in such missions).

The point is have the appropriate spread of levels of RN asset available to cover each mission.
1) Smaller (less well-armed) PV's to cover the lowest priority mundane patrol and policing missions
2) Slightly up-armed River B2's to cover the mid priority, slightly riskier patrol and policing missions in more dangerous regions
3) Escorts to focus on higher priority RN missions

[tomuk]

then a couple of these smaller PV's to cover the lower profile, more mundane patrolling and policing missions.

Surely these missions are the responsibility of the local governments not the RN. The RN hasn't got any small to medium 40m patrol boats because it doesn't need any.

[wargame_insomniac]

then a couple of these smaller PV's to cover the lower profile, more mundane patrolling and policing missions.

Surely these missions are the responsibility of the local governments not the RN. The RN hasn't got any small to medium 40m patrol boats because it doesn't need any.

If you re read my earlier posts, you will realise I am NOT talking inshore policing. I am talking policing and patrolling of the Uk and BOT's entire marine EEZ. Go look at a few maps of the UK and BOT's EEZ - you wll then realise the size of the area that the RN DOES have responsibility over.....

And also whilst re reading my previous replies, you will note that I was not fixed on 40m Patrol Vessels. That figure was noted purely in relation to XV Patrick Blackett, which was mentioned as an example of Damen FCS / FSV.

Anyway I fear we are drifting too far from the Thread's topic. I have gone into detail on the above a couple of times at length and am not going to repeat my self again.

[SD67]

I admit I don’t get the concept. What is the problem with launching UxVs from a B2 River or a Bay. Personally I like the idea of a few cheap as chips PSVs kitted out for an Atlantic Conveyor type role.
But designing a dedicated mothership looks like overkill to me, we need more real frigates

[Caribbean]

Though this is somewhat off-topic for this thread, I think that it's worth noting that there cannot be a single hull solution for inshore patrol in the BOTs. Local conditions differ substantially, so what might be appropriate for one will be severely limited for another.

Many (all?) of the Caribbean BOTS have coral reefs and large areas of shallow water, whereas, in the South Atlantic, all are surrounded by relatively deep water.

What might be appropriate for passing through a shallow reef channel in a heavy swell (minimal draft required to avoid bottoming out, high manoeuvrability to avoid the reefs themselves) might not be appropriate for a South Atlantic swell.

Offshore patrol could, however, be far more standardised across the UK and the BOTS. If the RB2s are better employed in higher-risk areas, then perhaps we should be looking at four or five vessels similar in size to (say) the US Coastguard Reliance class, at 65 x 10m and approx. 1150 tonnes.

[wargame_insomniac]

I admit I don’t get the concept. What is the problem with launching UxVs from a B2 River or a Bay. Personally I like the idea of a few cheap as chips PSVs kitted out for an Atlantic Conveyor type role.
But designing a dedicated mothership looks like overkill to me, we need more real frigates

That was part of what started the whole tangent (myself included). Initially the discussion started with BAE's Maritime Adaptable Strike Frigate which was a possible option for when T32 design specifications were eventually announced. This seemed to be (from the Chinook sized flight deck) another large 150m+ sized frigate. And the point was that it did not seem a good option to replace the current small MCMV's (Hunt & Sandown Classes) with such a large warship.

That is when I suggested that UK do something similar to Sea Class Workboats for inshore use and purchase a similar range of ships for offshore use. I mentioned Damen as the RN has already bought the XV Patrick Blackett, and noted that Damen have a whole portfolio of FCS / FSV up to 72m. I believe that the RN would have use of such ships for tasks such as MCMV and patroll vessels and noted that, under the UK's new National Shipbuilding Strategy, other UK Ministries would also need similar vessels in a variety of sizes. And my opinion was that if we did these purchases in a simlar manner to the Sea Class, we would get benefits of hopefully cheaper acqusition costs and definitely cheaper repairs and maintence, and simpler crew training due to the commonality of systems across these ships.

It was PRECISELY to free up frigates to be proper warships that suggested RN getting some of thes smaller ships to do these lower priority but esential tasks.

[wargame_insomniac]

Though this is somewhat off-topic for this thread, I think that it's worth noting that there cannot be a single hull solution for inshore patrol in the BOTs. Local conditions differ substantially, so what might be appropriate for one will be severely limited for another.

Many (all?) of the Caribbean BOTS have coral reefs and large areas of shallow water, whereas, in the South Atlantic, all are surrounded by relatively deep water.

What might be appropriate for passing through a shallow reef channel in a heavy swell (minimal draft required to avoid bottoming out, high manoeuvrability to avoid the reefs themselves) might not be appropriate for a South Atlantic swell.

Offshore patrol could, however, be far more standardised across the UK and the BOTS. If the RB2s are better employed in higher-risk areas, then perhaps we should be looking at four or five vessels similar in size to (say) the US Coastguard Reliance class, at 65 x 10m and approx. 1150 tonnes.

Agreed that can;t be "one size fits all" - that is why in my initial post I had noted that Damen offerd a range of FCS / FSV from 27m to 42m right up to 72m. And I have conceded that it might be for certain missions e.g. Falklands Islands that we might be better off sticking with River B2. But again this was all to free up RN's frigates for warfighting roles.

[Poiuytrewq]

Quite a sizeable ship. If the Chinook is to scale then this is easily in the 150-160m+ range. Presumably sized to fit the new assembly hall at Govan.

Janes says 130m.

“…BAE Systems' approach to the nascent Type 32 requirements set – is a hybrid 130 m Adaptable Strike Frigate that seeks to marry a large and flexible internal mission deck, designed to be able to host, support, and deploy a range of modular and/or autonomous payloads, with a command, sensor and weapon fit more typically associated with a strike-enabled surface combatant.”

https://www.janes.com/amp/thinking-alou ... Fp1cVMwPQ2

[Lord Jim]

Think "BAe's alternative !, to the core T-31.

[SD67]

Imagine you're Defence SOS in circa 2030. You have budget to kick off T32. In the Red corner is "T31+" offered by Babcock, with a functioning frigate factory, 5 ships completed, and movement down the cost curve to the point where it's now barely £200m per hull.
In the Blue corner is BAE's "radical mothership stealth frigate" with some sexy concept art, no confirmed build site and a request for 500£million+ to mature the design over the next 4 years.
Of course, you go for BAE

[donald_of_tokyo]

Your point means, if T32 is just a frigate, T31 mod will be a good option.

If T32 has more new things, such as carrying more containers, like mission bays and so on, it may change. Absalon? Only if the speed requirement is low. Most of the large mission space of Absalon is stolen by doubling the engine power, so, it you want to keep the speed, there is no Absalon.

If T32 needs more punch and ASW, here come T26 batch-3.

Many options remains.

And, of course, another possible options is, just T32 be cancelled (mostly because of lack of crew).

[SD67]

My point is I think UxVs are destined to become as common as missiles and helicopters in a frigate's armament so thinking in terms of dedicated motherships is probably flawed. It is in reality another frigate with evolved weapon and sensor fit. T26 and T31 already has a substantial Mission Bay, T31's flight deck is EH101 capable, both are large hulls.

On the other hand if T32 is specialist MCM asset then T32 is likely way OTT

[Tempest414]

Absalon has a speed of 24 knots so good enough to escort the LRG or convoys plus has the space to carry a lot of off board kit plus a Hangar for 2 Merlin's

Also Type 31 has Chinook capable flight deck and Merlin capable hangar

[donald_of_tokyo]

Absalon has a speed of 24 knots so good enough to escort the LRG or convoys plus has the space to carry a lot of off board kit plus a Hangar for 2 Merlin's

Also Type 31 has Chinook capable flight deck and Merlin capable hangar

Absalon class is 24 knot max in Danish standard. In Danish standard, Iver Huilfeldt class is 30 knots, while T31 shown in RN standard is 2 knots slower. So, I understand, in RN standard, Absalon class is 22 or 23 knots max. Is it enough? At least, she cannot follow the top speed of CVF. Replacing the main engine with more powerful one is an option.

If or if-not the open space on T31 and (up-powered) Absalon meet the T32 requirement all depends on the T31 requirement scale...