Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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Jdam
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

Image

Whats the gun below the ship?

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Analysis:

Image

1: Looks like the stern is equipped with Palfinger marine-slipway-systems, handling 2 ARCIMS USVs.
file:///Users/nakazawa/Downloads/palfinger-marine-slipway-systems-doublepage-11_2021-1.pdf

2: The ship also carries mine sweep gears to the port side, the three blocks.
see https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... tronik-uk/

3: On top of the hanger and on the bridge, there are "dragonfire" laser system.

4: propulsion is pod drive. May be azimuth rotating so the ship must be very maneuverable even in slow speed. Also it is fuel efficient. It also suggest it shall be electric drive? (can also be mechanical Z-shaft design).

5: A Merlin helicopter with folded tail can be seen in the helicopter hangar.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

BAE official brochure
https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/a ... ke-frigate

file:///Users/nakazawa/Downloads/CM213820.08.v04_ASF_datasheet.pdf

Image
We can see
- sometimes XLUUV be carried at the stern ramp
- two 40 mm 3P are mounted amidship
- the door behind the 2nd (larger) boat alcove is the entrance into the below flight deck mission space.
- no sonar seen. (while of course, ARCIMS USVs can carry Atlas LFAPS sonar system as SEASense.

Overall, it looks like a competitive ship design. At least, interesting, exciting, and worth discussing.

We shall look forward for the Babcock idea.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Important addition. It is a three shaft ship. Two azimuth pods, and one center shaft. Interesting.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Jdam wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 13:37 Image

Whats the gun below the ship?

I assumed a 35mm Millennium Gun in a new turret.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 21:29
Bongodog wrote: 12 Oct 2022, 19:24 I recall the T21's were said to be about 7 knots faster than their quoted speed.
Top
Think they were always mentioned as 31 knots +, but one actually hit 37.5 knots in service.
They were much slower after the strengthening work was done due to the extra hundreds of tons of steel. You are quoting before and after speeds. Although the before speed was only possible in very benign sea states due to the ships weakness.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Jensy wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 15:11
Jdam wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 13:37 Image

Whats the gun below the ship?

I assumed a 35mm Millennium Gun in a new turret.


Rail gun :D
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Operating as part of a task group or independently, Adaptable Strike Frigate will be enabled by a digital backbone to unlock the potential of multi-domain operations adopting a cloud based Mission Systems to deliver machine speed warfare at the speed of relevance.
That's my kind of ship, can't beat the speed of relevance!

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Couple of thoughts -
  • The flight deck is 'higher up' like Absalon allowing a flex deck below.
  • The masts are an interesting arrangement. Foremast with three ASEA panels and rotating nav radar ontop, a pair of rabbit ears MEKO style funnels, then an offset rear mast with the fourth ASEA panel and comms mast in top, noting the two exhausts to the right
  • Novel Weaponry - The model has Dragonfire laser or equivalent plus looking at twitter alongside the model were some swappable parts including what looked like a rail gun
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 18 Oct 2022, 14:24 ....it looks like a competitive ship design. At least, interesting, exciting, and worth discussing.
First Impression;

This concept is trying really hard not to look like Absalon but the similarities are apparent! This is a very different beast to the previous BAE released concept which was disappointing in the extreme.

IMO an adapted Absalon with additional compartmentalisation was always the favourite for the Type 32. I don't think this ASF concept from BAE changes that. It is an interesting layout but looks like a list of RN requirements shoe-horned into a legacy BAE design. Very much a first draft.

The Merlin capable hanger and Chinook capable flight deck are very welcome, as is the Mk41 cells. The single 57mm and double 40mm appears to the new standard. Adding Dragonfire seems ambitious. The lack of Artisan is apparent and unexpected.

The BAE designers have done a few clever things here which elevates this concept above the the original Arrowhead 120 and Stellar Spartan concepts in terms of damage control performance acceptable to RN. The main stern garage is actually raised 1 deck higher than the Spartan concept made possible by an adapted stern ramp, this keeps this large open mission space well above the waterline. Very important in terms of Frigate damage control and in all likelihood a prerequisite for RN.

Another impressive addition is the smaller stern port & starboard mission areas with lifting frames that are connected to the stern garage via watertight doors. An excellent use of space, helpful additional compartmentalisation and maintains the ability to launch/recover small craft even when the stern ramp is full.

In addition to the stern garage it appears the ASF concept has an amidships mission area which is connected to the stern garage via a watertight door in the bulkhead. This adds extra capacity to allow a much greater number of systems to be launched via the stern ramp and lifting frames. This amidships mission space also has direct access to the sea via port & starboard hatches. Excellent design.

The shaft/pod layout is interesting and more info on the propulsion system would be useful.

However, in my opinion there number of things that could be improved:

1. The amidships working deck and hanger layout makes little sense. Space has been retained for at least 5 TEU plus an access between the working deck and the flight deck. The deck crane which was included in the MK1 BAE concept has been deleted. A merlin capable hanger plus a UAV dog kennel is included. Why not add a double Merlin hanger like Absalon and create access through the second hanger if required? The second hanger could be compartmentalised so that a UAV could be kennelled whilst allowing through access for an ISO or similar moving between the working deck and the flight deck. It would be a much better use of space and allow a second helo to be embarked or multiple large UAVs if required.

2. What benefit is there to keeping the amidships working deck open to the elements? By covering this area and creating access into the hanger it massively increases the UAV capacity onboard. Loading to the working deck could be from above via a deck hatch (like Leander) or through the second hanger from the flight deck. By covering the amidships working deck entirely a UAV flight deck is created allowing the helos to operate unimpeded from the main flight deck and completely removing the need for the dog kennel. It would also allow the 40mm to be located in a much better position aft of the bridge wings allowing a much better firing arc.

3.The space designated for the VLS cells appears resrictive and not allowing a sensible margin for future proofing. BAE say this vessel is 130m and around 6000t. Why not increase this to 140m and 6500t to allow for some respectable VLS space if for no reason but to increase export potential. Is 8x Mk41 cells really enough for an Adaptable Strike Frigate? Clearly not. Space should be retained for 32x Mk41 cells plus 32 CAMM cells with an expectation to fit 16x Mk41 cells and 32 CAMM cells to RN versions. This would also allow 8x canister launched NSMs or similar to be located forward of the bridge.

All in all an interesting concept albeit very much an Absalon in BAE paint, dazzle of course so we hopefully miss the similarities :D
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Just looks like a damen crossover to me.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

SW1 wrote: 19 Oct 2022, 21:44 Just looks like a damen crossover to me.
Poiuytrewq wrote: 19 Oct 2022, 21:37 All in all an interesting concept albeit very much an Absalon in BAE paint, dazzle of course so we hopefully miss the similarities :D
Somewhat worrying comparisons for BAE, considering neither design has sold on the export market.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Jensy wrote: 20 Oct 2022, 00:18
SW1 wrote: 19 Oct 2022, 21:44 Just looks like a damen crossover to me.
Poiuytrewq wrote: 19 Oct 2022, 21:37 All in all an interesting concept albeit very much an Absalon in BAE paint, dazzle of course so we hopefully miss the similarities :D
Somewhat worrying comparisons for BAE, considering neither design has sold on the export market.
Yes and no. Big difference is the BAE strike frigate concept eliminates vehicle deck. It is NOT intended to directly contribute to amphibious operations, while Absalon and Crossover BOTH has a big stress on the capability.

Interesting move.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 19 Oct 2022, 21:37...
1. The amidships working deck and hanger layout makes little sense. Space has been retained for at least 5 TEU plus an access between the working deck and the flight deck. The deck crane which was included in the MK1 BAE concept has been deleted. A merlin capable hanger plus a UAV dog kennel is included. Why not add a double Merlin hanger like Absalon and create access through the second hanger if required? The second hanger could be compartmentalised so that a UAV could be kennelled whilst allowing through access for an ISO or similar moving between the working deck and the flight deck. It would be a much better use of space and allow a second helo to be embarked or multiple large UAVs if required.

2. What benefit is there to keeping the amidships working deck open to the elements? By covering this area and creating access into the hanger it massively increases the UAV capacity onboard. Loading to the working deck could be from above via a deck hatch (like Leander) or through the second hanger from the flight deck. By covering the amidships working deck entirely a UAV flight deck is created allowing the helos to operate unimpeded from the main flight deck and completely removing the need for the dog kennel. It would also allow the 40mm to be located in a much better position aft of the bridge wings allowing a much better firing arc.
Good point. I also noticed that.

I took it as a clear message, intentionally designed so, to allow direct access from containers' roof. BAE might be seriously thinking of container-based VLS system, for example. It will be also good for Simbad-RC type independent container-based SAM system. As significant number of containers "under the roof" can be carried below the flight deck, the mission deck on the main deck shall better be "open top"?

How about locating 4 CAMM-VLS containers on that corridor? Or, 4 quad-NSM-launcher containers? Actually, both, NSMs on amidship mission deck, and CAMMs on the corridor? How about Sea-SPEAR3 VLSs?
3.The space designated for the VLS cells appears resrictive and not allowing a sensible margin for future proofing. BAE say this vessel is 130m and around 6000t. Why not increase this to 140m and 6500t to allow for some respectable VLS space if for no reason but to increase export potential. Is 8x Mk41 cells really enough for an Adaptable Strike Frigate? Clearly not. Space should be retained for 32x Mk41 cells plus 32 CAMM cells with an expectation to fit 16x Mk41 cells and 32 CAMM cells to RN versions. This would also allow 8x canister launched NSMs or similar to be located forward of the bridge.
I also had similar idea coming into my mind. But, I also had another view.

I guess the heart of the design is to keep it small an cheap. The 130m/6000t hull can be a significantly enlarged version from its (not open) original concept? In other words, what we see here is already the "future proofing" = AFTER adding those punches.

For example, what if we start from Venari-85 like design. Make the hull longer to add a hangar, but keep narrower to achieve 25+ knots top speed. Enclose the mission deck astern by enlarging the flight deck. Then, let's add Mk.41 VLS and 24 CAMM (for future proofing), in addition to the 57 mm gun at the bow. Oh, I shall also add amidship mission deck to carry more containers in open deck (for future VLS container options).

Significantly enhanced Venari-85. If the ship is designed as a sloop-of-war = modern "very long-range" corvette with Navy-Pods in mind, it fits well for me.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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Also been given a good beating with the ugly stick.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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Interview with BAE on Adaptable Strike Frigate in our day 1 video at 06:58 (also includes French PANG and BAE's XLUUV Herne)

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

xav wrote: 22 Oct 2022, 08:50 Interview with BAE on Adaptable Strike Frigate in our day 1 video at 06:58 (also includes French PANG and BAE's XLUUV Herne)
Thanks Xavier-san. It looks like
- boat handling system is based on those of Kongsberg
- confirmed that the stern ramp is of Palfinger design
- the BAE guy said, T32 can carry (more than) 20 containers onboard
- also he said SH defense "cube" concept is considered, which is already reported by Xavier-san himself (https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... e-frigate/)

Interesting point of Cube is, it is much more multi-purpose than just for war fighting. Battery kits, boat kits, UAV-swarm launch and recovery kits are the major modules can be seen in their introduction video.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCIp9R ... eWA/videos

Not much of missiles and guns. Interesting is the torpedo tube system (likely anti-submarine light torpedo) and mine laying capabilities.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Some new details here:

https://www.navylookout.com/in-focus-ba ... e-concept/

If the T32 can be built by BAE for £250m-£300m plus GFE what is the point of the T31?
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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The point of the T31 was to give BAE a kick up the arse.

Wasn't the T31 reusing equipment to get it down to the £250m-£300m?
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

I agree BAE would never have come up with this unless Babcocks had taken type 31

Also this new ship is still not quite a Absalon in my view due to the fact that a Absalon can carry everything plus 2 x Merlin's plus a company of RM and looking at the stern ramp it could off load vehicles using a Mexeflote

The question is can Babcocks build Absalons at 200 million + GFE once they get to the end of the type 31 program

Also where are BAE going to build this new ship if they win

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

Where was BAE going to build 13 Type 26?

Might be the way to build them after the Type 26's, I mean the Type 45's will not need replacing any time soon with how little miles will be on them.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 24 Oct 2022, 12:11...Also this new ship is still not quite a Absalon in my view due to the fact that a Absalon can carry everything plus 2 x Merlin's plus a company of RM and looking at the stern ramp it could off load vehicles using a Mexeflote
I understand this ASF concept intentionally omitted the vehicle transfer task. With better boat handling capability, better TEU storage and locating capability, with smaller crew size. Being different is important here. So, no problem at this stage.
The question is can Babcocks build Absalons at 200 million + GFE once they get to the end of the type 31 program
May be. But THE Absalon is slow, because it has only 2 diesels. 24 knots in Danish standard, which will be 22 knots or so in RN standard. (as we see with IH-class vs T31 top speed comparison). There is NO "Absalon design with 4 diesels", because the increased power eats many of the internal volume. Just impossible.
Also where are BAE going to build this new ship if they win
This will be easy. The ASF ship looks very much COTS based ship. As is the Arrowhead 140, ASF could be built in not-well-experienced ship builders. So, BAE can use Cammel Laird, Babcock (Rosyth), and even other small shipyards to build the blocks, I think. What is more, the new building at Clyde will enable margins in capability. Remember even a T31 design (Leander) was proposed to be built in Cammel Laird.

Anyway, not a big issue, I think.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

I hope the bid will be like what the Japanese MOD did with FFM.

- Two competing design, Mitsui vs MHI
- MHI design was selected, but Mutsui also joined the build as a partner.

Interestingly, to be competitive, Mitsiu sold the escort building department to MHI, so now "both" partners are MHI.

I think, this story tells,
1: competition and industrial support can be done at the same time. "limited competition coupled with sharework" is not a full competition, but it is still a competition.
2: competition's result is ALWAYS a monopoly. You cannot stop the loser to sell their factory (or even bankrupt) and quit from the field. If you stop it, it is already not a fair competition. And, if so, "limited competition coupled with sharework" (item-1) already has a good rationale (better).

(in Japan, there are still another player, Japan Marine United, competing with MHI. But, loss of Mitsui means the number of rivals has decreased).
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 24 Oct 2022, 10:49 Some new details here:

https://www.navylookout.com/in-focus-ba ... e-concept/

If the T32 can be built by BAE for £250m-£300m plus GFE what is the point of the T31?
Some of us are old enough to remember when bae claimed type 26 would be in the same cost brkt…..
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 24 Oct 2022, 15:40 THE Absalon is slow, because it has only 2 diesels.
IMO an Absalon variant with a second engine room could still have a ASF style layout without an issue. Lots of adaptions required but it is possible.
BAE can use Cammel Laird, Babcock (Rosyth), and even other small shipyards to build the blocks, I think.
Perhaps but the T32 is likely to span 2028 to 2036.

If CL and Babcock are building the T32 blocks where are the 9 FSS and MRSS hulls going to be built?

The natural succession surely is Babcock for the T31 followed directly by the T32 regardless of which design is ultimately chosen.

The FSS needs to go to other yard(s). Building 18 escorts and over 200,000t of Auxiliaries and Amphibs by 2040 is a massive ask for UK PLC.

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