Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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Agreed. Thales in France have that model.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

This article is all over the place but some very interesting quotes from John Howie of Babcock.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... nt-crisis/
.

Next-gen warships will need half the crew of current vessels…..Defence contractor Babcock hopes to build frigates manned by just 50 sailors

The next generation of British frigates will be crewed by as few as 50 sailors amid a recruitment crisis at the Royal Navy, according to defence contractor Babcock.

John Howie, the company’s corporate affairs chief, said technological advances were expected to bring crewing requirements even further down following significant reductions on the most recent vessels.

He said while the Type 31 frigates currently being built for the Navy require a core crew of about 105 sailors, the company believes the next generation – often referred to as Type 32 – should only require half that number.

It comes as the armed forces battle recruitment shortages, with the Navy reportedly considering plans to mothball the amphibious assault ships HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark owing to a lack of personnel.

In the year to the end of March 2023, the Navy fell 27pc short of its annual recruitment target.


The services are also embroiled in a row over diversity, with soldiers told to avoid “Christian elements” in Acts of Remembrance on Armistice Day. This weekend the Telegraph revealed that the Army was seeking to relax security checks on overseas recruits to boost inclusion – a proposal criticised by Grant Shapps, the Defence Secretary, who warned that a “woke” and “extremist culture” was taking hold.

Mr Howie said further technological advances may ease pressure on staffing problems, pointing to how crew sizes have reduced significantly on some ships already.

For example, the aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth can operate with a crew of about 750 – down from the thousands previously required for vessels of her size.

Meanwhile, the Type 23 frigates have a complement of about 185 crew.

Plans for the Type 32 were announced four years ago but little progress with the programme has been announced since then.

Babcock and BAE Systems are among the companies that are expected to bid to build the future warships.

Asked whether further advances could help ease recruitment issues, Mr Howie said: “If you take HMS Queen Elizabeth, she was designed with a core crew of about 750. But on the old carriers it was a couple of thousand.

“A lot of that’s been done… through the highly-mechanised weapons handling system. On a US carrier they’ve got 250 people doing something that needs just a handful on Queen Elizabeth, because it’s been mechanised.

“Type 31s have a core crew that is much lower than Type 23. So some of it you’re getting through remote monitoring and compartments, some of it through automation.

“People talk about a Type 32 frigate – we like to refer to it as Type 31 batch two. We’re doing a crew of about 105 on Type 31, so realistically we should be aiming to half that number for batch two.”

Mr Howie added that even bigger crew reductions could potentially be delivered, taking numbers below 50 in future, but that this would depend on decisions about how to manage damage control in modern combat, for example to put out fires and deal with hull breaches.

Mr Howie said: “That’s something I think the Navy are looking at. To what extent, in the age of hypersonic missiles, do you just have to assume that ships are, if they get hit, gone? And therefore they just need to stay afloat long enough to get the crew off?

“If that’s the case, does that change the way you influence damage control?

“I think there’s also a broader cultural piece, which is how do you attract people to go to sea for long periods when there are other jobs available that might involve staying at home and going out with your mates on a Friday night?

“Sending people to sea on platforms that don’t have internet access, that don’t allow them to call on a regular basis – the armed services are like the rest of us, having to try to modernise and attract people into the workplace.”

Crew sizes have been gradually decreasing for centuries. In the age of sail, a frigate such as HMS Naiad fought in the Battle of Trafalgar with a complement of 284 sailors.

Numbers remained at a similar level for the first steam-powered vessels, such as HMS Amphion, which was commissioned in 1847 with 320 crew.

By the Second World War and the Cold War, frigates were down to less than 200 men.

Five of Babcock’s Type 31 frigates, also known as the Inspiration Class, are currently under construction.

They are all due to be in service by 2030, replacing the older Type 23 “Duke Class” frigates.

Each will be the length of 11 London buses and will be equipped with a helicopter flight deck, boat bays and advanced weaponry, including vertical launch systems capable of firing Standard Missile SM-2s, SM-3s and SM-6s, Tomahawk cruise missiles and SeaSparrows among others.

The first two, HMS Venturer and HMS Active, are currently being built by Babcock in Rosyth.

Venturer is currently expected to enter service in 2025.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

They said something similarly ambitious when MROSS was happening, something like a crew of 12. Obviously not true.

Interesting quote though:
“People talk about a Type 32 frigate – we like to refer to it as Type 31 batch two. We’re doing a crew of about 105 on Type 31, so realistically we should be aiming to half that number for batch two.”

Babcock acknowledges it will be a T31B2, but expects it to also have half the crew? I don't believe it it one bit.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

new guy wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 17:02 They said something similarly ambitious when MROSS was happening, something like a crew of 12. Obviously not true.

Interesting quote though:
“People talk about a Type 32 frigate – we like to refer to it as Type 31 batch two. We’re doing a crew of about 105 on Type 31, so realistically we should be aiming to half that number for batch two.”

Babcock acknowledges it will be a T31B2, but expects it to also have half the crew? I don't believe it it one bit.
Was it a watch of 13? The Danish Navy said they could ferry IH with.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

tomuk wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 17:07
new guy wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 17:02 They said something similarly ambitious when MROSS was happening, something like a crew of 12. Obviously not true.

Interesting quote though:
“People talk about a Type 32 frigate – we like to refer to it as Type 31 batch two. We’re doing a crew of about 105 on Type 31, so realistically we should be aiming to half that number for batch two.”

Babcock acknowledges it will be a T31B2, but expects it to also have half the crew? I don't believe it it one bit.
Was it a watch of 13? The Danish Navy said they could ferry IH with.
I refer to MROSS, where initial statements;
The ship, which will come into service by 2024, will be a surface vessel, with a crew of around 15 people who will conduct research to help the Royal Navy and Ministry of Defence protect our undersea critical national infrastructure and keep our lives and livelihoods secure from threat.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... astructure

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

new guy wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 17:26
tomuk wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 17:07
new guy wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 17:02 They said something similarly ambitious when MROSS was happening, something like a crew of 12. Obviously not true.

Interesting quote though:
“People talk about a Type 32 frigate – we like to refer to it as Type 31 batch two. We’re doing a crew of about 105 on Type 31, so realistically we should be aiming to half that number for batch two.”

Babcock acknowledges it will be a T31B2, but expects it to also have half the crew? I don't believe it it one bit.
Was it a watch of 13? The Danish Navy said they could ferry IH with.
I refer to MROSS, where initial statements;
The ship, which will come into service by 2024, will be a surface vessel, with a crew of around 15 people who will conduct research to help the Royal Navy and Ministry of Defence protect our undersea critical national infrastructure and keep our lives and livelihoods secure from threat.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new- ... astructure
So MROSS have a crew of 24 on 1.5 this is the ships crew it then has a mission crew this is the same as the Point class which has a crew of 22 but also has a RLC team

So as said on the River class thread the IH class is the full fat AH-140 it has a top class AAW radar and CMS , HMS , 44 x VLS , 16 x ASM , 2 x 76mm ,1 x 35mm & 2 x torpedo launchers the Danish Navy have said in open that they can operate and fight this ship with just 96 crew however what they found on FOST was that they needed 117 to operate and fight the ship plus conduct damage control at its most serve limit.

Also the T32 being a T31 B2 is clearly a AH-140MR

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 12 Feb 2024, 16:50 “People talk about a Type 32 frigate – we like to refer to it as Type 31 batch two. We’re doing a crew of about 105 on Type 31, so realistically we should be aiming to half that number for batch two.”
Good, this is precisely what needs to happen.

It should be a second batch, not new class. Should be aiming for around 60 crew which is totally reasonable for a second tier frigate if the RN is willing to adopt a new control philosophy. The Navy has to acknowledge a 'bullet proof' control philosophy is useless when it cant even put ships to sea.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

I'm honestly amazed that anyone thinks Type 32 is still a thing.

It was literally shoe-horned into the 2020 Integrated Review at the last minute purely for the purposes of allowing a scruffy fat liar to boast that he was turning the RN into Europe's leading navy.

The scruffy fat liar has gone but no-one wants to take responsibility for the fact that they're the one "cancelling" something that never really existed. The next Government will have exactly the same issue.

Type 32 has no budget, there's no MoD project team and no SRO. And the MoD has no cash. Is a business case being developed?

Ditto Type 83.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Tempest414 wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 09:38
So MROSS have a crew of 24 on 1.5 this is the ships crew it then has a mission crew this is the same as the Point class which has a crew of 22 but also has a RLC team

So as said on the River class thread the IH class is the full fat AH-140 it has a top class AAW radar and CMS , HMS , 44 x VLS , 16 x ASM , 2 x 76mm ,1 x 35mm & 2 x torpedo launchers the Danish Navy have said in open that they can operate and fight this ship with just 96 crew however what they found on FOST was that they needed 117 to operate and fight the ship plus conduct damage control at its most serve limit.

Also the T32 being a T31 B2 is clearly a AH-140MR

1) What are you talking about??? I was talking about how a 50 person crew for T32 is unrealistic, using a comparison of how the initial statement for MROSS said it would have a total crew of 15 when in reality it is now 76 (26 RFA+~50RN)

2) T31B2 will definately nor be AH-140MR in my opionion because:

a) We have no idea what T32 will look like or what it's KUR's are. Sure, we have hits of unmanned stuff and RM stuff, but we have no idea for what range or scale, this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be served by as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing EMF spaces.

b) That is a major redesign; And thus will cost. If the goal of T32 is an up-armed T31, which all the design work has already been done for, be it 🇬🇧or🇵🇱or🇮🇩

b) the MNP has quite a few Disadvantages.
1st, as listed above design work.
2nd, the removal of the capability of 16 or more MK41 cells
3rd, the removal of the forward 40mm gun, which is also quite undesirable.
4th, the rear boat ramp, which prevents a TAS.
There is some things I would take away, such as extended hanger and side ramp, and some improvements I would add, such as integrating the rear port boat bay into the enlarged hanger and doing the same to the rear starboard boat bay.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14 a) We have no idea what T32 will look like or what it's KUR's are. Sure, we have hits of unmanned stuff and RM stuff, but we have no idea for what range or scale, this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be served by as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing EMF spaces.
Could you run that by me again please?
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14
🇬🇧or🇵🇱or🇮🇩
Top marks for graphics :thumbup:

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

RichardIC wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 11:53 I'm honestly amazed that anyone thinks Type 32 is still a thing.

It was literally shoe-horned into the 2020 Integrated Review at the last minute purely for the purposes of allowing a scruffy fat liar to boast that he was turning the RN into Europe's leading navy.

The scruffy fat liar has gone but no-one wants to take responsibility for the fact that they're the one "cancelling" something that never really existed. The next Government will have exactly the same issue.

Type 32 has no budget, there's no MoD project team and no SRO. And the MoD has no cash. Is a business case being developed?

Ditto Type 83.
Politics aside, a Type 31 Batch 2 seems a reasonable expectation. No budgets for that or the T83 because it's too early in the process for either of them.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Ron5 wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 13:41
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14 a) We have no idea what T32 will look like or what it's KUR's are. Sure, we have hits of unmanned stuff and RM stuff, but we have no idea for what range or scale, this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be served by as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing EMF spaces.
Could you run that by me again please?
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14
🇬🇧or🇵🇱or🇮🇩
Top marks for graphics :thumbup:
sure.

We have no idea what exactly T32 will look like or what its Key User Requirements are. The Royal navy just hasn't released them yet. Sure, we have been given hints of unmanned technologies and Royal Marine stuff, but we have no idea for what scale those factors will have , this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing Embarked Royal Marine spaces.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

RichardIC wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 11:53 I'm honestly amazed that anyone thinks Type 32 is still a thing.

It was literally shoe-horned into the 2020 Integrated Review at the last minute purely for the purposes of allowing a scruffy fat liar to boast that he was turning the RN into Europe's leading navy.

The scruffy fat liar has gone but no-one wants to take responsibility for the fact that they're the one "cancelling" something that never really existed. The next Government will have exactly the same issue.

Type 32 has no budget, there's no MoD project team and no SRO. And the MoD has no cash. Is a business case being developed?

Ditto Type 83.
No its nothing to do with Boris. It has always been T31 B2.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:07
Ron5 wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 13:41
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14 a) We have no idea what T32 will look like or what it's KUR's are. Sure, we have hits of unmanned stuff and RM stuff, but we have no idea for what range or scale, this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be served by as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing EMF spaces.
Could you run that by me again please?
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14
🇬🇧or🇵🇱or🇮🇩
Top marks for graphics :thumbup:
sure.

We have no idea what exactly T32 will look like or what its Key User Requirements are. The Royal navy just hasn't released them yet. Sure, we have been given hints of unmanned technologies and Royal Marine stuff, but we have no idea for what scale those factors will have , this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing Embarked Royal Marine spaces.
Go it, it was the "remus 100" that was throwing me :thumbup:

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:07
Ron5 wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 13:41
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14 a) We have no idea what T32 will look like or what it's KUR's are. Sure, we have hits of unmanned stuff and RM stuff, but we have no idea for what range or scale, this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be served by as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing EMF spaces.
Could you run that by me again please?
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14
🇬🇧or🇵🇱or🇮🇩
Top marks for graphics :thumbup:
sure.

We have no idea what exactly T32 will look like or what its Key User Requirements are. The Royal navy just hasn't released them yet. Sure, we have been given hints of unmanned technologies and Royal Marine stuff, but we have no idea for what scale those factors will have , this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing Embarked Royal Marine spaces.
Radakin has said it is T31 B2. Tunmanned tech and RM stuff is just RN trying to sex it up and 'steal' budget from eleswhere.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:31
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:07
Ron5 wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 13:41
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14 a) We have no idea what T32 will look like or what it's KUR's are. Sure, we have hits of unmanned stuff and RM stuff, but we have no idea for what range or scale, this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be served by as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing EMF spaces.
Could you run that by me again please?
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14
🇬🇧or🇵🇱or🇮🇩
Top marks for graphics :thumbup:
sure.

We have no idea what exactly T32 will look like or what its Key User Requirements are. The Royal navy just hasn't released them yet. Sure, we have been given hints of unmanned technologies and Royal Marine stuff, but we have no idea for what scale those factors will have , this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing Embarked Royal Marine spaces.
Radakin has said it is T31 B2. Tunmanned tech and RM stuff is just RN trying to sex it up and 'steal' budget from eleswhere.
I agree, that's why i used it for my argument saying AH140 MNP will not be T32/T31B2.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:36
tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:31
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:07
Ron5 wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 13:41
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14 a) We have no idea what T32 will look like or what it's KUR's are. Sure, we have hits of unmanned stuff and RM stuff, but we have no idea for what range or scale, this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be served by as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing EMF spaces.
Could you run that by me again please?
new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 12:14
🇬🇧or🇵🇱or🇮🇩
Top marks for graphics :thumbup:
sure.

We have no idea what exactly T32 will look like or what its Key User Requirements are. The Royal navy just hasn't released them yet. Sure, we have been given hints of unmanned technologies and Royal Marine stuff, but we have no idea for what scale those factors will have , this is a frigate / combatant programme after all, It could be as little as one tucked away remus 100 and existing Embarked Royal Marine spaces.
Radakin has said it is T31 B2. Tunmanned tech and RM stuff is just RN trying to sex it up and 'steal' budget from eleswhere.
I agree, that's why i used it for my argument saying AH140 MNP will not be T32/T31B2.
Shame if true, to me the MNP looks a lot more useful than the basic T31. Still not a real frigate tho :D

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:30
No its nothing to do with Boris. It has always been T31 B2.
tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:31

Radakin has said it is T31 B2.
Source?

I mean it makes sense but it's not been stated.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

RichardIC wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 15:30
tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:30
No its nothing to do with Boris. It has always been T31 B2.
tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:31

Radakin has said it is T31 B2.
Source?

I mean it makes sense but it's not been stated.
It has been when he appeared before the defence select committee. To paraphrase what he said. RN were bidding for additional projects and wanted more frigates, T31 being the quickest route to get there. To make their pitch sound better RN called T31B2 T32 and sexed it up with autnomous guff.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 15:35
RichardIC wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 15:30
tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:30
No its nothing to do with Boris. It has always been T31 B2.
tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:31

Radakin has said it is T31 B2.
Source?

I mean it makes sense but it's not been stated.
It has been when he appeared before the defence select committee. To paraphrase what he said. RN were bidding for additional projects and wanted more frigates, T31 being the quickest route to get there. To make their pitch sound better RN called T31B2 T32 and sexed it up with autnomous guff.
What Radakin said last July to the defence committee. In its entirety:
Chair: What has happened to Type 32?

Admiral Sir Tony Radakin: Type 32 is still a programme that is to be funded.

Chair: Not a typo from Type 31?

Admiral Sir Tony Radakin: There will be a decision as to whether Type 32 becomes Type 31—does it become Type 31 batch 2, or is it is a completely different ship?

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 15:54
tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 15:35
RichardIC wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 15:30
tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:30
No its nothing to do with Boris. It has always been T31 B2.
tomuk wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 14:31

Radakin has said it is T31 B2.
Source?

I mean it makes sense but it's not been stated.
It has been when he appeared before the defence select committee. To paraphrase what he said. RN were bidding for additional projects and wanted more frigates, T31 being the quickest route to get there. To make their pitch sound better RN called T31B2 T32 and sexed it up with autnomous guff.
What Radakin said last July to the defence committee. In its entirety:
Chair: What has happened to Type 32?

Admiral Sir Tony Radakin: Type 32 is still a programme that is to be funded.

Chair: Not a typo from Type 31?

Admiral Sir Tony Radakin: There will be a decision as to whether Type 32 becomes Type 31—does it become Type 31 batch 2, or is it is a completely different ship?
Different meeting.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

IMHO, the best option for the RN would be to buy 5-6 MCM motherships like that Dutch/Belgian/French project, and just name it Type 32 frigates... With maybe better range and speed than tipical MCM ship.
After all, the Hunts are really long in the teeths...
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by new guy »

abc123 wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 16:08 IMHO, the best option for the RN would be to buy 5-6 MCM motherships like that Dutch/Belgian/French project, and just name it Type 32 frigates... With maybe better range and speed than tipical MCM ship.
After all, the Hunts are really long in the teeths...
That's what the LSV programme is.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

new guy wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 16:14
abc123 wrote: 13 Feb 2024, 16:08 IMHO, the best option for the RN would be to buy 5-6 MCM motherships like that Dutch/Belgian/French project, and just name it Type 32 frigates... With maybe better range and speed than tipical MCM ship.
After all, the Hunts are really long in the teeths...
That's what the LSV programme is.
Yes, but does the RN has resources for both?
As we can see with current fleet, there simply isn't enough sailors or the money...
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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