Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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tomuk
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 11 Sep 2023, 14:36
tomuk wrote: 10 Sep 2023, 21:45 Donald
Do fincantieri not have two escort yards at Muggiano and Riva Trigoso? What about the yards in Germany.
Good point. I understand they ALSO to merchant vessels build there?
I'm not clear on Germany but the Fincantieri merchant yards in the Genoa area nearby to Muggiano and Riva Trigoso as well as other yards across Italy. An example the new Volcano replenishment ship are built two sections Riva Trigoso build the back half and Castellammare di Stabia in Naples a 'civilian' yard build the front. Another is the italian aircraft carriers, Riva Trigoso built one but the other was built at Montefalcone which is where the super sized cruise ships are built.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

This is an interesting one -



Babcock and SAAB to develop new `100metre light Frigate "For Export".

If Sweden is a customer this would have to be built at least partly at Rosyth, not sure Sweden has built anything that big for a while.

Apologies to Mods - didn't know where to post this

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

That's a crowded market, but perhaps the RN could look at an OPV variant for when the B1's need replacing
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Caribbean wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 11:06 That's a crowded market, but perhaps the RN could look at an OPV variant for when the B1's need replacing
Why not make it scalable from 80m to 120m?

Great idea from Babcock. Time to move on from the Rivers now.
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Tempest414
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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will depend on the Swedish need will they be looking to replace all 7 or just 5 of there corvettes if all 7 then a class of 10 with 3 for the UK could be a good build program hulls built at Rosyth and CMS and sensors fitted in Sweden

Are the Swedish looking at building say 7 new 100+ meter ships as part there commitment to NATO and say SNMG-1&2

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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Tempest414 wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 11:37 will depend on the Swedish need will they be looking to replace all 7 or just 5 of there corvettes if all 7 then a class of 10 with 3 for the UK could be a good build program hulls built at Rosyth and CMS and sensors fitted in Sweden

Are the Swedish looking at building say 7 new 100+ meter ships as part there commitment to NATO and say SNMG-1&2
That would keep Rosyth ticking over until the mid 2030s which is a much better time to introduce the T32.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 11:30 Why not make it scalable from 80m to 120m?
At 120m, that might be a good fit for the T32, unless we really do end up with one of the hybrid designs that has been much discussed on these pages
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Arctic Frigate of Danish navy.

125x18m. VLS. Two guns (but looks like 30-40mm?)

Polar-class-5 ice strengthened. Handles CUBE-system, including mine laying, ASW etc. Hopefully "blue light" in this Autumn. Anyway, to replace Thesis class, within 1 year.

All in all, looks like a good candidate for T32, if it ever going to happen (I think, unlikely).

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by zavve »

Tempest414 wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 11:37 Are the Swedish looking at building say 7 new 100+ meter ships as part there commitment to NATO and say SNMG-1&2
4 Luleå corvettes/light frigates are in the early definition stages. They are expected to be considerably larger than Visby (73m) so around 100m seems appropriate. The suspicion from the Swedish defence community was always that the hulls would be built elsewhere and outfitted in Karlskrona. The first ship is due to be delivered "around 2030". There is also an ongoing programme to outfit Visby with SAM, and Sea Ceptor is heavily rumoured.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

zavve wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 16:36
Tempest414 wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 11:37 Are the Swedish looking at building say 7 new 100+ meter ships as part there commitment to NATO and say SNMG-1&2
4 Luleå corvettes/light frigates are in the early definition stages. They are expected to be considerably larger than Visby (73m) so around 100m seems appropriate. The suspicion from the Swedish defence community was always that the hulls would be built elsewhere and outfitted in Karlskrona. The first ship is due to be delivered "around 2030". There is also an ongoing programme to outfit Visby with SAM, and Sea Ceptor is heavily rumoured.
Many thanks sounds like that time frame would work well for Rosyth as first steel would need to cut around the end of 2026 at about the same time as the last type 31 it would be great for Babcock's

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

zavve wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 16:36 The first ship is due to be delivered "around 2030".
Timeline fits for Rosyth.

Need to cut steel in late 2026 so could deliver the first hull a bit earlier, perhaps early 2028? Commissioned for 2030 would seem plausible.

Could this be Babcock hedging or is the timeline now becoming too short for a guaranteed T31 follow-on batch?

Whilst HMG and RN procrastinate, Industry can’t wait.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Not to downplay their capabilities, but does Babcock have the design capability/expertise to deliver a new 100m warship design?

On Type 31 they brought in OMT and BMT, whilst for the Ukrainian fast attack craft they resurrected a 1990s FBM Marine design.

That said, the Swedes have been talking about having the Luleå class hulls built elsewhere, and fitted out domestically, since early in the year:
Deteriorating security situation halts development of new Visby corvettes

The external situation is causing the Armed Forces to rethink.
The new surface combat ships were to be based on the unique Visby corvettes, which were built at the Karlskrona shipyard. The plan has been scrapped and, it is evident, that the new hulls are being built at a shipyard abroad.
Link behind paywall and in Swedish:
https://www.blt.se/karlskrona/forsamrat ... -897ea1ee/
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by zavve »

Jensy wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 17:38 Not to downplay their capabilities, but does Babcock have the design capability/expertise to deliver a new 100m warship design?
A pure Babcock design has never been on the table. What we are speculating about is a Saab and Babcock collaboration. Saab was the main design for the Visby class, together I have no doubt they can design a large corvette.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

zavve wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 19:27
Jensy wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 17:38 Not to downplay their capabilities, but does Babcock have the design capability/expertise to deliver a new 100m warship design?
A pure Babcock design has never been on the table. What we are speculating about is a Saab and Babcock collaboration. Saab was the main design for the Visby class, together I have no doubt they can design a large corvette.
From purely the Babcock point of view, if they gain the ability to export a 2nd design, this time at around 100m a lot more appealing to many smaller countries that could not afford the larger 140m design.

If Babcock starts building a portfolio of ship designs, even if another company such as BMT or SAAB were the lead designer, it should lead to more export sales, hopefully export - build so that Rosyth has some guaranteed work in the 2030's.

The ideal would be if Babcock get some build work from Sweden which as others have said will fit in nicely after the end of the T31s.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

zavve wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 19:27
Jensy wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 17:38 Not to downplay their capabilities, but does Babcock have the design capability/expertise to deliver a new 100m warship design?
A pure Babcock design has never been on the table. What we are speculating about is a Saab and Babcock collaboration. Saab was the main design for the Visby class, together I have no doubt they can design a large corvette.
That would seems logical considering Babcock's weakness in that area, as I say above.

Kockums has substantial capability even if recently its mainly been used on subs.

Only reason I questioned it was the wording of the Saab press release posted above raises platform design, rather than say fabrication or assembly:


wargame_insomniac wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 19:44 From purely the Babcock point of view, if they gain the ability to export a 2nd design, this time at around 100m a lot more appealing to many smaller countries that could not afford the larger 140m design.
Makes a lot of sense as BAE haven't really bothered to compete in the lower end warship sector. Even the recent-ish River/Khareef/Leander extended family goes back to the Vosper Thornycroft days.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Jensy wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 20:37 Even the recent-ish River/Khareef/Leander extended family goes back to the Vosper Thornycroft days.
Never understood the lack of ambition.

So much more could have been done over the years to build up an export sideline for Govan.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 21:41
Jensy wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 20:37 Even the recent-ish River/Khareef/Leander extended family goes back to the Vosper Thornycroft days.
Never understood the lack of ambition.

So much more could have been done over the years to build up an export sideline for Govan.
Govt./BAE spent far too many of the years designing, at least two different, Type 26 designs instead. At considerable cost.

I might rant on about it but the original Future Surface Combatant concept, of C1, C2 and C3, but it was a pragmatic way of delivering both a balanced fleet and to sustain a decent naval shipbuilding industry. We've just gone about fulfilling it in the most convoluted, inefficient and costly way possible.

Type 32 (yes officer, I'm staying on topic) as a flexible and affordable little warship could be attractive to the market, considering we've already sold the designs. of what are in effect C1 and C2, to multiple countries.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Jensy wrote: 14 Sep 2023, 00:33 I might rant on about it but the original Future Surface Combatant concept, of C1, C2 and C3, but it was a pragmatic way of delivering both a balanced fleet and to sustain a decent naval shipbuilding industry. We've just gone about fulfilling it in the most convoluted, inefficient and costly way possible.

Type 32 (yes officer, I'm staying on topic) as a flexible and affordable little warship could be attractive to the market, considering we've already sold the designs. of what are in effect C1 and C2, to multiple countries.
The outcome was acceptable but the journey to get there was excruciating.

The C1/C2/C3 strategy is sound so now is the time to solidify the next-gen concepts.

The entire C1/C2/C3 concept may perhaps even need expansion to include the full range of options.

- C1 AAW
- C1 ASW
- C1 GP
- C2 AAW
- C2 ASW
- C2 GP
- C3 EEZ
- C3 High Capacity

Quite a portfolio for UK PLC.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 21:41
Jensy wrote: 13 Sep 2023, 20:37 Even the recent-ish River/Khareef/Leander extended family goes back to the Vosper Thornycroft days.
Never understood the lack of ambition.

So much more could have been done over the years to build up an export sideline for Govan.
I recall a briefing on this topic at Barrow, and we were told in no uncertain terms, this is not a shipbuilding company we're a weapons systems integration company and anything that doesn't have super advanced systems on it well we're not interested, Khareef lost alot of money, we are not going back there

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SD67 wrote: 14 Sep 2023, 15:45 I recall a briefing on this topic at Barrow, and we were told in no uncertain terms, this is not a shipbuilding company we're a weapons systems integration company and anything that doesn't have super advanced systems on it well we're not interested, Khareef lost alot of money, we are not going back there
Exactly as expected. The metal bashing isn’t a priority.

Perhaps Babcock will take a different approach and carve a new and profitable niche for Rosyth.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

The problem I have had with BAE is the lack of forward thinking they may not want to be a builder of low end warships but they have not fall filled there own brief like if they want to be a system intergration company where is there intergraded mast they are a design company but where is there low end design that can take there intergrate mast system. One could say if they had a intergrated mast it could be fitted to the RB2 class of ship

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

SD67 wrote: 14 Sep 2023, 15:45 anything that doesn't have super advanced systems on it well we're not interested
Makes sense, that's where the money is. It's the way so many engineering firms are going in the UK (including mine). Metal bashing is easy by comparison.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

shark bait wrote: 14 Sep 2023, 21:44 Metal bashing is easy by comparison.
Metal bashing is far from ‘easy’ :D

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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Tempest414 wrote: 14 Sep 2023, 18:17 The problem I have had with BAE is the lack of forward thinking they may not want to be a builder of low end warships but they have not fall filled there own brief like if they want to be a system intergration company where is there intergraded mast they are a design company but where is there low end design that can take there intergrate mast system. One could say if they had a intergrated mast it could be fitted to the RB2 class of ship
Their costs are too high to compete at the low end. The top end activity - T26/Astute etc - drive all the pay scales. I am still sceptical of their long term future in Shipbuilding (apart from Subs). It's the least profitable part of the group, barely covering cost of capital

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

SD67 wrote: 15 Sep 2023, 12:21
Tempest414 wrote: 14 Sep 2023, 18:17 The problem I have had with BAE is the lack of forward thinking they may not want to be a builder of low end warships but they have not fall filled there own brief like if they want to be a system intergration company where is there intergraded mast they are a design company but where is there low end design that can take there intergrate mast system. One could say if they had a intergrated mast it could be fitted to the RB2 class of ship
Their costs are too high to compete at the low end. The top end activity - T26/Astute etc - drive all the pay scales. I am still sceptical of their long term future in Shipbuilding (apart from Subs). It's the least profitable part of the group, barely covering cost of capital
This is what I mean BAE should be focused on design and intergration they should be letting other get on with the ship building they should be designing and building an intergrated mast block that fits into there designs

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