Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

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Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Jake1992 wrote: 26 Oct 2022, 17:03
With Babcock going down buying the T31 design could they end up buying something like the Damen Crossover. It seems to tick a lot of box’s and the XO139 looks very flexible.
Looking at the BAE offering I don’t think this can now be completely discounted.

It’s true that Damen have not actually built a Crossover yet but then BAE haven’t actually built an Adapted Strike Frigate either!

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Repulse wrote: 27 Oct 2022, 10:40 It’s easy to blame BAE, and they are to blame historically in some areas, but fix the points above and there is a fighting chance.
A fighting chance for BAE?

Could BAE actually see the T32 as a way of pushing Babcock out of UK escort building altogether?

If BAE won the T32 contract and consolidated all escort building at Govan and Scotstoun there would be substantive economies of scale. Would it amount to savings of 15% to 20% per hull? Seems fanciful but 10% to 12% may be possible.

For the remaining five T26 and proposed five T32 that could amount to a saving of around £600m to £700m or the equivalent of 1.5 or 2 T32 hulls. A great place for the Treasury to find a cut without actually cutting anything. A true efficiency saving.

Babcock would then have to concentrate on MROSS, FSS and MRSS plus the Wave and Point replacements. The infrastructure at Rosyth would have to expand further to accommodate such a large order book but again the economies of scale could be huge. Other UK yards could bid for blocks but Rosyth would become the UK’s mega-yard.

It could be win-win for everyone (apart from Navantia).

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

But again I say with a 5 ship order of type 32 and starting from a clean sheet it will cost 550 million plus per ship or 2.8 billion and as I say this is based on the fact the both BAE and Babcocks could not build adapt proven designs for less than 400 million per ship

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Let’s see what the next batch of type 26 cost defence my bet 5b plus. Can bae build a notional type 32 and a notional type 83? Do we need them


When the fss is being built in the dock at Rosyth were does the broken carrier go?.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:01 When the fss is being built in the dock at Rosyth were does the broken carrier go?.
Invest some of the money saved to construct a suitable dry dock on the south coast.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

SW1 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:01 Let’s see what the next batch of type 26 cost defence my bet 5b plus. Can bae build a notional type 32 and a notional type 83? Do we need them


When the fss is being built in the dock at Rosyth were does the broken carrier go?.
To be fair docks 2 and 3 are big enough to build ships 220 x 40 meter as proven by the picture of the 210 x 36 meter HMS Illustrious docked next a QE class in dock 1

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:17
SW1 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:01 When the fss is being built in the dock at Rosyth were does the broken carrier go?.
Invest some of the money saved to construct a suitable dry dock on the south coast.
So we’re not actually saving any money then….

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:27
Poiuytrewq wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:17
SW1 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:01 When the fss is being built in the dock at Rosyth were does the broken carrier go?.
Invest some of the money saved to construct a suitable dry dock on the south coast.
So we’re not actually saving any money then….
Why?

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Tempest414 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:22
SW1 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:01 Let’s see what the next batch of type 26 cost defence my bet 5b plus. Can bae build a notional type 32 and a notional type 83? Do we need them


When the fss is being built in the dock at Rosyth were does the broken carrier go?.
To be fair docks 2 and 3 are big enough to build ships 220 x 40 meter as proven by the picture of the 210 x 36 meter HMS Illustrious docked next a QE class in dock 1
Wouldn't it be better to put the QECs in dock 2 or 3 as you will need the Goliath crane which is over Dock 1 to build the FSS. Oh but isn't dock 3 at least being used for decommissioning and chopping up one f the old SSNs.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Bongodog »

tomuk wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 17:15
Tempest414 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:22
SW1 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:01 Let’s see what the next batch of type 26 cost defence my bet 5b plus. Can bae build a notional type 32 and a notional type 83? Do we need them


When the fss is being built in the dock at Rosyth were does the broken carrier go?.
To be fair docks 2 and 3 are big enough to build ships 220 x 40 meter as proven by the picture of the 210 x 36 meter HMS Illustrious docked next a QE class in dock 1
Wouldn't it be better to put the QECs in dock 2 or 3 as you will need the Goliath crane which is over Dock 1 to build the FSS. Oh but isn't dock 3 at least being used for decommissioning and chopping up one f the old SSNs.
Docks 2 & 3 are quite a bit shorter than dock 1, a QEC carrier wouldn't fit.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Bongodog wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 17:52
tomuk wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 17:15
Tempest414 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:22
SW1 wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 11:01 Let’s see what the next batch of type 26 cost defence my bet 5b plus. Can bae build a notional type 32 and a notional type 83? Do we need them


When the fss is being built in the dock at Rosyth were does the broken carrier go?.
To be fair docks 2 and 3 are big enough to build ships 220 x 40 meter as proven by the picture of the 210 x 36 meter HMS Illustrious docked next a QE class in dock 1
Wouldn't it be better to put the QECs in dock 2 or 3 as you will need the Goliath crane which is over Dock 1 to build the FSS. Oh but isn't dock 3 at least being used for decommissioning and chopping up one f the old SSNs.
Docks 2 & 3 are quite a bit shorter than dock 1, a QEC carrier wouldn't fit.
Better have the Goliath crane moved then.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 10:23
Repulse wrote: 27 Oct 2022, 10:40 It’s easy to blame BAE, and they are to blame historically in some areas, but fix the points above and there is a fighting chance.
A fighting chance for BAE?

Could BAE actually see the T32 as a way of pushing Babcock out of UK escort building altogether?

If BAE won the T32 contract and consolidated all escort building at Govan and Scotstoun there would be substantive economies of scale. Would it amount to savings of 15% to 20% per hull? Seems fanciful but 10% to 12% may be possible.

For the remaining five T26 and proposed five T32 that could amount to a saving of around £600m to £700m or the equivalent of 1.5 or 2 T32 hulls. A great place for the Treasury to find a cut without actually cutting anything. A true efficiency saving.

Babcock would then have to concentrate on MROSS, FSS and MRSS plus the Wave and Point replacements. The infrastructure at Rosyth would have to expand further to accommodate such a large order book but again the economies of scale could be huge. Other UK yards could bid for blocks but Rosyth would become the UK’s mega-yard.

It could be win-win for everyone (apart from Navantia).
What is to stop BAE raising their prices once they have pushed Babcock out of escort building market?

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

I think design is different from build - competition in the latter is a benefit, not so sure in the former
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Repulse wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 21:33 I think design is different from build - competition in the latter is a benefit, not so sure in the former
In that I would agree. But that is NOT what you said previously.

In your previous post you had said:
"If BAE won the T32 contract and consolidated all escort building at Govan and Scotstoun there would be substantive economies of scale."

My understanding is that both Govan and Scotstoun are BAE shipyards. I think it is dangerous in the medium - long term to remove that element of competition from BAE for escort shipbuilding.

I beleive that BAE had been trying for years to get the MOD to pay for them to have a covered shipyard. Babcock use the T31 contract money to pay to build their own covered shipyard at Rosyth. BAE fear losing future escort shipbuilding work and then surprise surprise they start talking about paying to build their own covered shipyard....

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

That’s true I did, and I still believe that efficiencies of scale and stability in the order book is more key to driving down costs than competition. However, on the basis that BAE could be made efficient with enough T26/T83s then in principle there is no reason why Babcock should not build a BAE design.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Repulse wrote: 28 Oct 2022, 21:33 I think design is different from build - competition in the latter is a benefit, not so sure in the former
Design is the easy bit, productionising the design and manufacturing the hard bit. If you don’t consider that the later in the former from the beginning you end up building expensive individual prototypes.

The UK need to work out where it wants to invest its money to actually deliver systems long term then pick designs that it can integrate those systems into in the uk.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

In my fantasy world I would invest in BMT to make it the UK design house and then have BAE and Babcocks contest for the build contract

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

On that basis Babcocks would win the build contract every time and BAE would be out of the shipbuilding business. Their cost base is much lower.
IMHO it would rapidly trend towards the French model where there is one supplier Naval Group with Thales as a minority shareholder, supplying radar, CMS etc (BAE playing the Thales). In fact the Team UK FSS proposal is basically this model if it’s built at Rosyth.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Tempest414 wrote: 30 Oct 2022, 08:18 In my fantasy world I would invest in BMT to make it the UK design house and then have BAE and Babcocks contest for the build contract
BMT is the UK design house it is the old Naval architects department privatised in a slightly odd way so it can remain independent. The traditional model in the UK was the Naval architects would come up with the concept high level design and than a lead yard would do the detail\build design. That lead yard would then build at least some of the ships with other yards following their detailed design. The T23 being the last to be built like this between the RN, Yarrows and Swan Hunter.
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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... p-defence/

He’s staying, the big wigs have told him to suck it up

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

SD67 wrote: 08 Nov 2022, 18:48 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... p-defence/

He’s staying, the big wigs have told him to suck it up

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Is this not more Political Discussions rather than Type 32 News?

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

Yes for sure feel free to move it

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

So, plans for Type 32 withdrawn because of unaffordability (p20). They're either going to get dropped entirely or cost significantly more than originally thought which means something else has to give.

Seeing as they were both last-minute inserts in the last SDR when we had a lying buffoon as a PM it really shouldn't be a surprise.

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploa ... o-2032.pdf

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

IMO the likelihood of the T32 programme being scrapped just went through the roof.

A mix of additional T26 and T31 looks like the most sensible way to proceed if HMG are really serious about growing escort numbers.

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Re: Type 32 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 16:27 IMO the likelihood of the T32 programme being scrapped just went through the roof.

A mix of additional T26 and T31 looks like the most sensible way to proceed if HMG are really serious about growing escort numbers.
Or the more likely out come IMO HMG just see escort numbers stay the same or shrink and blame everything on the economic position even through they find money for everything else including climate reputations.

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