UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Contains threads on Royal Air Force equipment of the past, present and future.

Lord Jim
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Lord Jim »

Great that we are keeping an eye on the programme, but any acquisition is going to be a long way off and there are other options. These like the MV-22 are Rolls Royce solutions but there will be cheaper alternatives hopefully that can still get the job done.

Jake1992
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Jake1992 »

IMO they both offer a wider set of options, not just this the aircraft themselves but the wider families of aircraft they link to.
For example the V-280 has the wider family of the V-247s with all its variants which would be good for carrier use.
The SB1 Defiant opens up with the likes of the S97 Raider which IMO looks to be a good replacement for the wildcats down the line.

Scimitar54
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Scimitar54 »

V-280 and V-247 might, if considerably modified might be capable of Carrier use. However, who is going to fund the re-design to include folding wings etc.

Do the USN or USMC need them? They already have the MV-22, so probably not. Leaves the question, who will fund a Carrier version? Probably no one, as too few aircraft will be required to have folding wings to persuade the manufacturer to do so. Will the MoD pay for this? I do not think so!

Sadly, if we want a “tilt-rotor”, it will have to be the same as the USN and USMC use. At the moment, that is the MV-22. If we want to play, then we will have to pay the price, expensive though they may be! The V-280 and V-247 are not likely to provide either a Free (or Cheap) Lunch alternative! :mrgreen:

Jake1992
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Jake1992 »

Scimitar54 wrote:V-280 and V-247 might, if considerably modified might be capable of Carrier use. However, who is going to fund the re-design to include folding wings etc.

Do the USN or USMC need them? They already have the MV-22, so probably not. Leaves the question, who will fund a Carrier version? Probably no one, as too few aircraft will be required to have folding wings to persuade the manufacturer to do so. Will the MoD pay for this? I do not think so!

Sadly, if we want a “tilt-rotor”, it will have to be the same as the USN and USMC use. At the moment, that is the MV-22. If we want to play, then we will have to pay the price, expensive though they may be! The V-280 and V-247 are not likely to provide either a Free (or Cheap) Lunch alternative! :mrgreen:
The V-247 is already designed for carrier use as it’s been designed for USMC requirements of AEW, EW, Reaper style attack and is designed to fit in the hanger of an AB destroyer. The target price from them is also aimed at around the £25mbper unit so not to bad if they can hit that.
I’m not sure if theV-280 also already has carrier design in mind but I would t be shocked since it’s based on the same basic design of the V-247.

serge750
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by serge750 »

I'm still waiting for these bad boys :D :D :D :D

http://defense-update.com/wp-content/up ... 12/qtr.jpg

Scimitar54
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Scimitar54 »

V-247 is a concept, which Bell is looking for the USMC to fund the development of! It is true that the concept proposes that it can be carried aboard an Arleigh-Burke. A long way off at the present time though, I would say.

V-280 is US Army led, so why would they want to pay for it to have a folding wing? If they do, or if it had this as designed, surely they would argue that they don’t need the folding wing, in order to reduce cost/ be able to afford more! :mrgreen:

Jake1992
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Jake1992 »

Scimitar54 wrote:V-247 is a concept, which Bell is looking for the USMC to fund the development of! It is true that the concept proposes that it can be carried aboard an Arleigh-Burke. A long way off at the present time though, I would say.

V-280 is US Army led, so why would they want to pay for it to have a folding wing? If they do, or if it had this as designed, surely they would argue that they don’t need the folding wing, in order to reduce cost/ be able to afford more! :mrgreen:
If the V-280 is chosen by the US army wouldn’t a folding wing be necessary or at least make more sence for transport.
I can’t see them fitting in any transport aircraft with out a folding wing and I’m not sure if the wing can just be removed at least with any ease.

With the USMC LHDs / LHAs being planned to be used more as a light carrier it makes the likes of V-247s more likely for AEW and EW. There could also be a good international market for them with the F35B making light STOVL carriers more credible along with nations like Japan coming back in to the carrier game.

Scimitar54
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Scimitar54 »

Maybe! However, it will be a very long way off.

Jake1992
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Jake1992 »

Scimitar54 wrote:Maybe! However, it will be a very long way off.
Oh I agree this 10 years away at least.

What would be interesting though is if the US army go for the SB1 Defiant family would the USMC look to pick up the V-280 as a replacement for it lighter aircraft and to compliment the V-22s since they are already looking at the V-247.

Scimitar54
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Scimitar54 »

I don’t know if they are! I do know that Bell want them to, but that is not necessarily the same thing. I guess that there would have to be a certain lack of satisfaction with the MV-22 for that to happen, or the further passage of time! :mrgreen:

Jake1992
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Jake1992 »

Scimitar54 wrote:I don’t know if they are! I do know that Bell want them to, but that is not necessarily the same thing. I guess that there would have to be a certain lack of satisfaction with the MV-22 for that to happen, or the further passage of time! :mrgreen:
I don’t really see the V-280 as a competitor to the V-22 but more of a complimentary aircraft, when you look at there size, there lift capacity and troop load they both fit in to different areas. To me the V-22 sits between a merlin and chinook in the above where as the V-280 sits between the wildcat and the merlin.

If like I said up thread the US army got for the Defiant family the V-280 could not only be a nice complimentary aircraft for the V-22 in the USMC but could also replace all medium aircraft in the USN with it being hanger capable for the whole fleet.


Regardless we will end up following the US lead at least out side of ASW helos I believe.

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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by shark bait »

jonas wrote:https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... nt-with-us
If the Brits are buying even more american aircraft it can kiss goodbye to it's domestic production base.
Jake1992 wrote:If the V-280 is chosen by the US army wouldn’t a folding wing be necessary or at least make more sence for transport.
Not necessary, they're more likely to self deploy.
Jake1992 wrote:I don’t really see the V-280 as a competitor to the V-22 but more of a complimentary aircraft
Yeah it's like Chinook and Puma, both fill different gaps and can be operated side by side.
@LandSharkUK

Jake1992
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Jake1992 »

shark bait wrote:
jonas wrote:https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... nt-with-us
If the Brits are buying even more american aircraft it can kiss goodbye to it's domestic production base.
Jake1992 wrote:If the V-280 is chosen by the US army wouldn’t a folding wing be necessary or at least make more sence for transport.
Not necessary, they're more likely to self deploy.
Jake1992 wrote:I don’t really see the V-280 as a competitor to the V-22 but more of a complimentary aircraft
Yeah it's like Chinook and Puma, both fill different gaps and can be operated side by side.
Would they self deploy over long distance though as to the mild east or Far East. Iv never known any helo or tilt rotor do this they are all transported by either heavy lift planes or ship, which in either case folding wings are at least better if not required.

SW1
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by SW1 »

Chinook self deployed to Sierra leone

Jake1992
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Jake1992 »

SW1 wrote:Chinook self deployed to Sierra leone
Where from as that is interesting.

Did they conduct AAR ?

SW1
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by SW1 »

Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:Chinook self deployed to Sierra leone
Where from as that is interesting.

Did they conduct AAR ?
Deployed 3000 miles from RAF Odiham over a couple of days

Jake1992
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Jake1992 »

SW1 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:Chinook self deployed to Sierra leone
Where from as that is interesting.

Did they conduct AAR ?
Deployed 3000 miles from RAF Odiham over a couple of days
That is interesting but would the US army look at deploying all helos / tilt rotors that way from the US to the Middle East or Far East considering the numbers they’d deploy ?

SW1
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by SW1 »

Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:Chinook self deployed to Sierra leone
Where from as that is interesting.

Did they conduct AAR ?
Deployed 3000 miles from RAF Odiham over a couple of days
That is interesting but would the US army look at deploying all helos / tilt rotors that way from the US to the Middle East or Far East considering the numbers they’d deploy ?
The US has an ocean to cross to get to Europe or the Far East so there requirements are different. That’s why they keep fwd deployed units in both locations.

Jake1992
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Jake1992 »

SW1 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:Chinook self deployed to Sierra leone
Where from as that is interesting.

Did they conduct AAR ?
Deployed 3000 miles from RAF Odiham over a couple of days
That is interesting but would the US army look at deploying all helos / tilt rotors that way from the US to the Middle East or Far East considering the numbers they’d deploy ?
The US has an ocean to cross to get to Europe or the Far East so there requirements are different. That’s why they keep fwd deployed units in both locations.
That’s what Iv been trying to get at, to forward deploy or rapidly deploy extra they need to be transport from the US in the first place either by air or by ship in either case a V-280 with need to have its wing removed ( doubt that’d be easy ) or be purchased with the folding wing.

SW1
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by SW1 »

Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:Chinook self deployed to Sierra leone
Where from as that is interesting.

Did they conduct AAR ?
Deployed 3000 miles from RAF Odiham over a couple of days
That is interesting but would the US army look at deploying all helos / tilt rotors that way from the US to the Middle East or Far East considering the numbers they’d deploy ?
The US has an ocean to cross to get to Europe or the Far East so there requirements are different. That’s why they keep fwd deployed units in both locations.
That’s what Iv been trying to get at, to forward deploy or rapidly deploy extra they need to be transport from the US in the first place either by air or by ship in either case a V-280 with need to have its wing removed ( doubt that’d be easy ) or be purchased with the folding wing.
How the US intends to deploy aircraft from the US is of little concern of ours. Like with Puma, wildcat or chinook, a requirement can be set to its disassemble/reassembly for air transport in a set time with set number of people and associated equipment.

Little J
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Little J »

Jake1992 wrote:I don’t really see the V-280 as a competitor to the V-22 but more of a complimentary aircraft, when you look at there size, there lift capacity and troop load they both fit in to different areas. To me the V-22 sits between a merlin and chinook in the above where as the V-280 sits between the wildcat and the merlin.

If like I said up thread the US army got for the Defiant family the V-280 could not only be a nice complimentary aircraft for the V-22 in the USMC but could also replace all medium aircraft in the USN with it being hanger capable for the whole fleet.


Regardless we will end up following the US lead at least out side of ASW helos I believe.
The V-280 (with folding wings) is an obvious replacement for the UH-1Y... But i can't see the Marines looking for a replacement for a long time.

And does anybody else think the Defiant looks absolutely enormous for what it does? I remember the concept video that had something S-76 sized...

Jake1992
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Jake1992 »

Little J wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:I don’t really see the V-280 as a competitor to the V-22 but more of a complimentary aircraft, when you look at there size, there lift capacity and troop load they both fit in to different areas. To me the V-22 sits between a merlin and chinook in the above where as the V-280 sits between the wildcat and the merlin.

If like I said up thread the US army got for the Defiant family the V-280 could not only be a nice complimentary aircraft for the V-22 in the USMC but could also replace all medium aircraft in the USN with it being hanger capable for the whole fleet.


Regardless we will end up following the US lead at least out side of ASW helos I believe.
The V-280 (with folding wings) is an obvious replacement for the UH-1Y... But i can't see the Marines looking for a replacement for a long time.

And does anybody else think the Defiant looks absolutely enormous for what it does? I remember the concept video that had something S-76 sized...
I agree merlins are 15-20 years away from replacement.

Iv been wondering if the Defiant could fit in in a DDGs hanger due to the height of its double rotor ( if a maritime option is chosen )

Lord Jim
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Lord Jim »

Nice video of the Bell 360 Invictus. I know its not really Vertical Lift but I thought it would fit in here because of the recent discussions,

Dahedd
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Re: UK Future Vertical Lift Programme

Post by Dahedd »

The Invictus seems to be a far simpler aircraft vs the other 2. That might seal the deal for it. Looks the business too. Like a Cobra & a Commanche got jiggy with it :lol:

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