Current & Future Coastal Forces - General Discussion

[Repulse]

There may well be a case for ships like the T26 and T31 to carry a more robust patrol craft than the current RHIBS. But any suggestion that as soon as they offload them that they should come under the command of another organisation is not sensible.

Completely agree, and have never suggested it myself.

[Repulse]

By whom and how?

The only example you provide is terrorists style attacks. If this is the case, then the UK response should be to increase resource for intelligence and police forces, with coastal naval forces only really providing a visible deterrent role.

Let’s start by naming Iran, China and Russia.

Iran is known to have targeted the RN base recently in the Gulf, hence the increase in security - whilst not necessarily a threat from the sea; given other events and their capabilities it is not a stretch to imagine an attack possibly using drones via a proxy.

Russia is becoming increasingly active both around UK waters and in the western Mediterranean near Cyprus - whilst at this stage not likely to become a hot war, I’m sure a shadow war is being played out.

China, is also increasingly stretching its muscles - I’m sure they will be less than impressed that the RN plans to conduct FONOPs in the South China Sea. The disablement of a CVF through a proxy or via agents should not be ruled out.

May all seem far fetched, but it’s the way the world is going IMO.

[Aethulwulf]

By whom and how?

The only example you provide is terrorists style attacks. If this is the case, then the UK response should be to increase resource for intelligence and police forces, with coastal naval forces only really providing a visible deterrent role.

Let’s start by naming Iran, China and Russia.

Iran is known to have targeted the RN base recently in the Gulf, hence the increase in security - whilst not necessarily a threat from the sea; given other events and their capabilities it is not a stretch to imagine an attack possibly using drones via a proxy.

Russia is becoming increasingly active both around UK waters and in the western Mediterranean near Cyprus - whilst at this stage not likely to become a hot war, I’m sure a shadow war is being played out.

China, is also increasingly stretching its muscles - I’m sure they will be less than impressed that the RN plans to conduct FONOPs in the South China Sea. The disablement of a CVF through a proxy or via agents should not be ruled out.

May all seem far fetched, but it’s the way the world is going IMO.

Ok, this is a start. You have said who, but not much about how.

For Iran, any attack on Bahrain is going to be by missile or air drone, or by suicide bombers/IEDs on land. Neither is something that a coastal patrol craft can defend against.

A Russian military attack on UK naval base is not a credible threat. A Russian or Russian proxy attack on Cyprus air base from Syria maybe. But again, 'the how' would be via missile or air strike. Not something a patrol craft could stop.

Chinese attack on QEC. You say disable by proxy or agent. This sounds like some sort of terrorists-like attack while in port. As I have already explained, patrol craft have a limited role here. If you think there is a threat, and you can't rely of host nation protection, then don't visit that port. The alternative is for maybe the carrier group to carry Patrol craft within the group to deploy during port visits. If so, I still can't see why they should be part of a global coastal command.

[Repulse]

With the proliferation of surface and underwater drones, I think they cannot be ruled out as attack routes. Also, with a lot of ports handling both military and commercial ships, an attack via this route cannot be ruled out either. I’m not saying it is the only route, but neither is it unlikely. Who would rule out the possibility of a modern Pearl Harbour, but using UUVs?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2 ... -for-iran/

[Aethulwulf]

Far more likely that such a UUV could be used for laying mines in shipping channels than attacking warships in harbours.

Get an autonomous system to navigate over long distances, on its way in to the shallow waters of a harbour, taking into account tides and currents and avoiding other vessels, then once within the harbour selecting a target that may well have moved location since the UUV was launched... is quite a feet of AI. Much easier to drop mines into shipping channels. Much less chance of the UUV getting capture. Much more deniable. Much higher chance of success.

[Lord Jim]

Could we see the reintroduction of anti-submarine nets and booms/tenders to control access to military harbours as a defence against unmanned naval craft ?

[Pongoglo]

I’d say the role of the Coastal Forces should be the following within coastal waters
- Port Protection
- Force Protection
- Anti-terrorism
- Surveillance
- Underwater Survey
- Shallow water MCM and ASW

Given that this would include inland waterways and rivers, then I think two vessel sizes are required 15-20m and 40-60m in length, both armed and capable of operating drones.

What utter nonsense.

Port Protection: Protection from whom? What op forces are threats to UK ports, apart from terrorists - which you have listed separately.
Force Protection: Again, protection from whom? What is the threat to UK armed forces operating in UK coastal waters? Why would they need additional armed protection?
Anti-terrorism: Ok, coastal forces might have a role here, but it is a small one. Providing a means for SF to respond to off-shore terrorists events. Most of anti-terrorism is police work and intelligence gathering.
Surveillance: What is the subject of surveillance? There are no enemy forces operating in UK coastal waters. Are you talking about criminal activities? Is this really a RN issue?
Underwater survey: Do you just mean HMS Magpie? Why should that one ship be under a separate command structure to the other survey ships Echo, Enterprise and Scott. How does that make things better?
Shallow water MCM and ASW. So you think this should be under coastal force command when it is done within 12 miles of the UK, but other commands when done elsewhere. How does that improve things?

That's assuming of course that the only coast our Coastal Forces are intended to operate off is our own........

[RichardIC]

Given the announcement that government is renaming the 1st Patrol Boat Squadron to now be the Coastal Forces Squadron, it begs the question what is driving the change and what is the future vision.

We've got a Government that does spin, not vision. This is spin.

Like the grand announcement that the B1 rivers were going to be "forward deployed" to their namesake rivers. Remember that hoot?

Don't read anything into this because it's vapid.

[Repulse]

[Dahedd]

Rather OT as it refers to air assets not coast/navy but driving passed Kinloss the other day it amazes me just how open & easy to access the P8s & Typhoon's seem.

Some jihadi with a self made mortar (ie IRA attack on downing St) could make a real mess from the road. Infact a stolen HGV would probably be enough to do the job. I always felt the sane when the Nimrods were there, its a huge chunk to be sat there so openly.

[Repulse]

[Timmymagic]

Big fan of these...lets get a couple for Gibraltar and a couple for Faslane. Hell lets get all the rest for the Border Force...speed, range, firepower, adaptability...what more could you want.

Mind you the fact that the USN is looking to get rid so young is interesting/worrying...but it does happen for innocent and good reasons, not just bad.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... trol-boats

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_VI_patrol_boat

[ArmChairCivvy]

.lets get a couple for Gibraltar and a couple for Faslane. Hell lets get all the rest for the Border Force...speed, range, firepower, adaptability...what more could you want.

We'll need to reserve our place in the queue
"several partner nations have expressed interest in potentially purchasing a number of the craft via the foreign military sales process for their own use".

[Timmymagic]

"several partner nations have expressed interest in potentially purchasing a number of the craft via the foreign military sales process for their own use".

I'm sure that when we explain that they will also escort visiting USN SSN's we might get near the top of the queue..

[RichardIC]

Hell lets get all the rest for the Border Force

Do you know what Border Force does? It doesn't require firepower.

[Timmymagic]

Do you know what Border Force does? It doesn't require firepower.

Yes I know. But high speed, seaworthy vessels with good sensor fits for a great price are hard to come by. Take off the RWS by all means, but the other capabilities of the boats are worth the price of admission alone.