The future form of the Army

[Tempest414]

the Way I see it the Ukraine war has shown that all the old thinking still stands i.e a commander always needs

More soldiers
more Artillery
more tanks
More Air defence
more Logistics
more information
More time

And what it tells the Army / MOD is that it needs more of all of the above

The army needs to be balanced across the board to support allies that’s what it suggests to me.

That is what I said because for the army to be Balanced it needs all of the above in some form or other

Not sure all on that list adds balance from where we are now.

We need more troops to balance out deployments
We need more more SP gun & rocket artillery to balance out the need of armoured brigades and the DF brigade
we need more tanks to balance out the armoured regiments and there deployments
we need more air defence to balance out the needs across the army
very one always needs more Logistics remember logistics , logistics , logistics , Fight repeat
we need more UAV's and other ISTAR to balance the information gap across the battle space
we need more time to put this all in place and balance up across the army

[SW1]

the Way I see it the Ukraine war has shown that all the old thinking still stands i.e a commander always needs

More soldiers
more Artillery
more tanks
More Air defence
more Logistics
more information
More time

And what it tells the Army / MOD is that it needs more of all of the above

The army needs to be balanced across the board to support allies that’s what it suggests to me.

That is what I said because for the army to be Balanced it needs all of the above in some form or other

Not sure all on that list adds balance from where we are now.

We need more troops to balance out deployments
We need more more SP gun & rocket artillery to balance out the need of armoured brigades and the DF brigade
we need more tanks to balance out the armoured regiments and there deployments
we need more air defence to balance out the needs across the army
very one always needs more Logistics remember logistics , logistics , logistics , Fight repeat
we need more UAV's and other ISTAR to balance the information gap across the battle space
we need more time to put this all in place and balance up across the army

There needs to be a rebalance on scale! We are not doing divisions!

There need to be a reallocation of resources to better balance equipment and people and in what branches

Stop trying to overcomplicate things.

[Tempest414]

the Way I see it the Ukraine war has shown that all the old thinking still stands i.e a commander always needs

More soldiers
more Artillery
more tanks
More Air defence
more Logistics
more information
More time

And what it tells the Army / MOD is that it needs more of all of the above

The army needs to be balanced across the board to support allies that’s what it suggests to me.

That is what I said because for the army to be Balanced it needs all of the above in some form or other

Not sure all on that list adds balance from where we are now.

We need more troops to balance out deployments
We need more more SP gun & rocket artillery to balance out the need of armoured brigades and the DF brigade
we need more tanks to balance out the armoured regiments and there deployments
we need more air defence to balance out the needs across the army
very one always needs more Logistics remember logistics , logistics , logistics , Fight repeat
we need more UAV's and other ISTAR to balance the information gap across the battle space
we need more time to put this all in place and balance up across the army

There needs to be a rebalance on scale! We are not doing divisions!

There need to be a reallocation of resources to better balance equipment and people and in what branches

Stop trying to overcomplicate things.

Really fucking Really show me a commander who dose not want what is on that list and I will show you a fucking liar the army it self said it needs most of that list

And we are doing two divisions worth of BCT's

[SW1]

the Way I see it the Ukraine war has shown that all the old thinking still stands i.e a commander always needs

More soldiers
more Artillery
more tanks
More Air defence
more Logistics
more information
More time

And what it tells the Army / MOD is that it needs more of all of the above

The army needs to be balanced across the board to support allies that’s what it suggests to me.

That is what I said because for the army to be Balanced it needs all of the above in some form or other

Not sure all on that list adds balance from where we are now.

We need more troops to balance out deployments
We need more more SP gun & rocket artillery to balance out the need of armoured brigades and the DF brigade
we need more tanks to balance out the armoured regiments and there deployments
we need more air defence to balance out the needs across the army
very one always needs more Logistics remember logistics , logistics , logistics , Fight repeat
we need more UAV's and other ISTAR to balance the information gap across the battle space
we need more time to put this all in place and balance up across the army

There needs to be a rebalance on scale! We are not doing divisions!

There need to be a reallocation of resources to better balance equipment and people and in what branches

Stop trying to overcomplicate things.

Really fucking Really show me a commander who dose not want what is on that list and I will show you a fucking liar the army it self said it needs most of that list

And we are doing two divisions worth of BCT's

Show me the money to buy it. 2% of gdp or there abouts is all there will be. If you think there will actually be more show me where from, cutting the NHS budget? Increasing tax, growing the economy so 2% means more cash. Without at plan for that the rest is irrelevant.

No point adding more wishing thinking on top of the last 20 years worth of wishful thinking. It ends up in a mess.

[Tempest414]

Whats your name Jerry

1 ) More troops the army is looking to reverse the cut in troop number right now
2 ) More Artillery the Army has funding to increase M270A2 from 44 to 61 but would like 75 plus they are looking to replace AS-90 with a new more powerful SP Gun system
3) Tanks I agree we might not get any more but the army did have a need for 190 but got 148
4 ) More air defence the army has said it needs more Air defence to combat UAV's
5) More Logistics is just a thing and always will be
6) More UAV's and ISTAR the army is already working on this with small UAV's for the Cavalry units and others
7) More time again this is what it is

Edit; No 3 it now looks like we are looking at converting more Challengers

[Tempest414]

So over on the Challenger thread I put forward a new look for the army like so

1st Division
3 x light mechanised brigades
2 x Reserve light infantry Battalion battle groups
1 x Engineer group
1 x Logistics Brigade

2nd Division
1 x Air Assault Brigade
1 x Aviation brigade
1 x Security Force Assistance Brigade
1 x Engineer group
1 x Logistics Brigade

3rd Division
1 x Deep fires Brigade
3 x Armoured brigade
2 x Reserve Armoured battalion battle groups
1 x Engineer group
1 x Logistics brigade

6th Division
1 x Special operation Brigade
77th brigade
1 x Intelligence Surveillance & Reconnaissance group
1 x Medical Brigade
1 x Cyber & Electro Magnetic affects group

For me this would be a good place to start

[SW1]

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2023/03/ ... my-part-1/

[Tempest414]

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2023/03/ ... my-part-1/

Its saying what is said here pretty much if anything it is a bit long winded some good points

[Lord Jim]

One idea would be to base the Brigaes in 3rd (UK) Division on those of the reformed Australian Army ORBAT. HTHis would mean four Brigades each containing a Cavalry Regiment comprised of two Armoured Squadrons of eighteen Challenger 3s and two Squadrons of Ajax again of eighteen vehicles each. Next would be two Mechanised infantry Battalions mounted in Boxer and finally a Royal Artillery Regiment with thirty two Archer DSP 155mm Guns. Divisional level detachments would be ArmourdEngineering Companies, SHORAD Batteries, Signals including EW, and UAV Operators.

The DeepFires/Recce BCT would be a Divisional level unit, as would any longre ranged GBAD units.

[Tempest414]

One idea would be to base the Brigaes in 3rd (UK) Division on those of the reformed Australian Army ORBAT. HTHis would mean four Brigades each containing a Cavalry Regiment comprised of two Armoured Squadrons of eighteen Challenger 3s and two Squadrons of Ajax again of eighteen vehicles each. Next would be two Mechanised infantry Battalions mounted in Boxer and finally a Royal Artillery Regiment with thirty two Archer DSP 155mm Guns. Divisional level detachments would be ArmourdEngineering Companies, SHORAD Batteries, Signals including EW, and UAV Operators.

The DeepFires/Recce BCT would be a Divisional level unit, as would any longre ranged GBAD units.

As things stand in FS we will have 2 armoured brigades made up out of 2 x Cavalry Regt , 2 x Armoured Regt , 5 x Mech Battalions if we moved a Infantry Battalion from the 4th BCT we could build 3 x BCT's with say

1 x Armoured Cavalry = 2 x Sqn's of CH3 & 2 x Sqn's of Ajax
2 x Mech Battalions = Boxer
1 x Artillery suppoert = 1 x SP Gun battery & 1 x MLRS battery + 1 troop each of AD and UAV
1 x Logistics regt

[Tempest414]

So moving on from the Amphib thread would the Army be be off like so

2 x Rapid Response Brigades = 16AA & Gurkha RRB with

3 x Infantry Battalions
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt
Core task to of each brigade is hold a Battalion Battle Group at high readiness to be moved by Air or Sea as needed

1st Division = 3 x Light Mechanised strike Brigades + 2 Reserve Battalion Battle groups

1 x Light Cavalry regt
3 x light Mech Infantry
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt
Core task to hold a strike brigade at high readiness to deploy by Sealift ships as needed
Main vehicles Jackal , Patria 6x6 , MAN based Artillery & Logistics

3rd Division = 1 x DRS Brigade and 2 x Armoured brigades + 1 Reserve armoured Battalion battle group

1 x Armoured Cavalry
3 x Boxer Infantry
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt

[SW1]

So moving on from the Amphib thread would the Army be be off like so

2 x Rapid Response Brigades = 16AA & Gurkha RRB with

3 x Infantry Battalions
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt
Core task to of each brigade is hold a Battalion Battle Group at high readiness to be moved by Air or Sea as needed

1st Division = 3 x Light Mechanised strike Brigades + 2 Reserve Battalion Battle groups

1 x Light Cavalry regt
3 x light Mech Infantry
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt
Core task to hold a strike brigade at high readiness to deploy by Sealift ships as needed
Main vehicles Jackal , Patria 6x6 , MAN based Artillery & Logistics

3rd Division = 1 x DRS Brigade and 2 x Armoured brigades + 1 Reserve armoured Battalion battle group

1 x Armoured Cavalry
3 x Boxer Infantry
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt

Ino you’ve said we can’t afford boxer but we cannot live in a vacuum there is a huge number on order and we can’t simply scrap the lot and keep starting again.

If we take what currently is on order then I would have a deployable army divisional HQ that could incorporate any of the following

1 armoured brigade configured similarly to a U.S. army armoured brigade. 1 cavalry and 3 combined arms battalions and a 155m artillery unit. Put all current challenger and warriors in it and then replace with challenger 3 and Ajax when ready. This is a contingency against the need for peer offensive action.

Have 2 boxer brigades one high readiness one low to take over the fwd deployed battlegroup in the Baltic with the rest of the brigade at readiness in the U.K. to reinforce. configure similar to a U.S. army Stryker bridge but with a rocket artillery reg and air defence reg assigned to support each brigade.

Then one air deployable light mech brigade 3 infantry battalions with missile artillery in support for rapid deployment over strategic distance as a stand in deterrent.

The boxer and light brigades would have a parachute capable formation reconnaissance company assigned to each.

And a high readiness special force group similar to the US 3rd special forces group with attached helicopters with aar capabilities to operate on land or seas wherever required.

[RunningStrong]

With more countries buying Patria, is it time the UK joined as part of a more affordable FV432 replacement plan?https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... t-vehicles

[Tempest414]

So moving on from the Amphib thread would the Army be be off like so

2 x Rapid Response Brigades = 16AA & Gurkha RRB with

3 x Infantry Battalions
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt
Core task to of each brigade is hold a Battalion Battle Group at high readiness to be moved by Air or Sea as needed

1st Division = 3 x Light Mechanised strike Brigades + 2 Reserve Battalion Battle groups

1 x Light Cavalry regt
3 x light Mech Infantry
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt
Core task to hold a strike brigade at high readiness to deploy by Sealift ships as needed
Main vehicles Jackal , Patria 6x6 , MAN based Artillery & Logistics

3rd Division = 1 x DRS Brigade and 2 x Armoured brigades + 1 Reserve armoured Battalion battle group

1 x Armoured Cavalry
3 x Boxer Infantry
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt

Ino you’ve said we can’t afford boxer but we cannot live in a vacuum there is a huge number on order and we can’t simply scrap the lot and keep starting again.

If we take what currently is on order then I would have a deployable army divisional HQ that could incorporate any of the following

1 armoured brigade configured similarly to a U.S. army armoured brigade. 1 cavalry and 3 combined arms battalions and a 155m artillery unit. Put all current challenger and warriors in it and then replace with challenger 3 and Ajax when ready. This is a contingency against the need for peer offensive action.

Have 2 boxer brigades one high readiness one low to take over the fwd deployed battlegroup in the Baltic with the rest of the brigade at readiness in the U.K. to reinforce. configure similar to a U.S. army Stryker bridge but with a rocket artillery reg and air defence reg assigned to support each brigade.

Then one air deployable light mech brigade 3 infantry battalions with missile artillery in support for rapid deployment over strategic distance as a stand in deterrent.

The boxer and light brigades would have a parachute capable formation reconnaissance company assigned to each.

And a high readiness special force group similar to the US 3rd special forces group with attached helicopters with aar capabilities to operate on land or seas wherever required.

I have scraped nothing everything we have on order would be used in the 3rd division but I would then order 1000 Patria 6x6 for the 1st division to allow 3 Brigades of 3 Battalions with each brigade made up like so

1 x Light Cavalry = jackal
3 x Mech infantry = Patria 6x6
1 x Artillery regt = HMARS
1 x Logistics regt = MAN trucks
1 x Engineer regt = Patria 6x6 & MAN

[SW1]

So moving on from the Amphib thread would the Army be be off like so

2 x Rapid Response Brigades = 16AA & Gurkha RRB with

3 x Infantry Battalions
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt
Core task to of each brigade is hold a Battalion Battle Group at high readiness to be moved by Air or Sea as needed

1st Division = 3 x Light Mechanised strike Brigades + 2 Reserve Battalion Battle groups

1 x Light Cavalry regt
3 x light Mech Infantry
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt
Core task to hold a strike brigade at high readiness to deploy by Sealift ships as needed
Main vehicles Jackal , Patria 6x6 , MAN based Artillery & Logistics

3rd Division = 1 x DRS Brigade and 2 x Armoured brigades + 1 Reserve armoured Battalion battle group

1 x Armoured Cavalry
3 x Boxer Infantry
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt

Ino you’ve said we can’t afford boxer but we cannot live in a vacuum there is a huge number on order and we can’t simply scrap the lot and keep starting again.

If we take what currently is on order then I would have a deployable army divisional HQ that could incorporate any of the following

1 armoured brigade configured similarly to a U.S. army armoured brigade. 1 cavalry and 3 combined arms battalions and a 155m artillery unit. Put all current challenger and warriors in it and then replace with challenger 3 and Ajax when ready. This is a contingency against the need for peer offensive action.

Have 2 boxer brigades one high readiness one low to take over the fwd deployed battlegroup in the Baltic with the rest of the brigade at readiness in the U.K. to reinforce. configure similar to a U.S. army Stryker bridge but with a rocket artillery reg and air defence reg assigned to support each brigade.

Then one air deployable light mech brigade 3 infantry battalions with missile artillery in support for rapid deployment over strategic distance as a stand in deterrent.

The boxer and light brigades would have a parachute capable formation reconnaissance company assigned to each.

And a high readiness special force group similar to the US 3rd special forces group with attached helicopters with aar capabilities to operate on land or seas wherever required.

I have scraped nothing everything we have on order would be used in the 3rd division but I would then order 1000 Patria 6x6 for the 1st division to allow 3 Brigades of 3 Battalions with each brigade made up like so

1 x Light Cavalry = jackal
3 x Mech infantry = Patria 6x6
1 x Artillery regt = HMARS
1 x Logistics regt = MAN trucks
1 x Engineer regt = Patria 6x6 & MAN

Ok fair enough but where did the 600 Ajax go?

[Tempest414]

Into the 4 Armoured Cavalry units plus some may go the close Armoured artillery and Engineer units within the 3rd division

[Poiuytrewq]

Ok fair enough but where did the 600 Ajax go?

With the list of priorities as long as it is, can the Army still justify so many Ajax?

[Poiuytrewq]

I have scraped nothing everything we have on order would be used in the 3rd division but I would then order 1000 Patria 6x6 for the 1st division to allow 3 Brigades of 3 Battalions with each brigade made up like so

1 x Light Cavalry = jackal
3 x Mech infantry = Patria 6x6
1 x Artillery regt = HMARS
1 x Logistics regt = MAN trucks
1 x Engineer regt = Patria 6x6 & MAN

This looks very good.

The only downside is mixed tracked vs wheeled in 3rd Division?

[Tempest414]

we need to remember that the 5 Boxer Battalions will use between 90 and 100 boxers each set out something

42 x APC
15 x C&C
9 x SP Mortar
9 x ATGW
8 x Recce
9 x Engineer
6 x Ambulance

[Tempest414]

Ok fair enough but where did the 600 Ajax go?

With the list of priorities as long as it is, can the Army still justify so many Ajax?

Yes as said they are needed in the 4 Armoured Cavalry units plus the 4 Close Armoured Artillery units and Close armoured Engineers

[SW1]

Ok fair enough but where did the 600 Ajax go?

With the list of priorities as long as it is, can the Army still justify so many Ajax?

I don’t think so but then as there on order..

[SW1]

Into the 4 Armoured Cavalry units plus some may go the close Armoured artillery and Engineer units within the 3rd division

I only saw two armed cavalry in the armoured brigades which I assumed were challenger tanks.

[Tempest414]

Into the 4 Armoured Cavalry units plus some may go the close Armoured artillery and Engineer units within the 3rd division

I only saw two armed cavalry in the armoured brigades which I assumed were challenger tanks.

Yes sorry I should of put in Armoured regts so it should have been 2 x Armoured Brigades of

1 x Armoured Cavalry
1 x Armoured regt
3 x Mech Boxer Battalions
1 x Artillery regt
1 x Logistics regt
1 x Engineer regt

Edit ; we will have 4 Ajax Armoured cavalry unit 2 in the armoured brigades and 2 in the Deep fire recce brigade

[Poiuytrewq]

I don’t think so but then as there on order..

No time to be sentimental.

Ditch the overspend and give the Army the number that is needed. The Australians know how to do that.

The Ajax program has been a disaster, it’s a miracle it’s still progressing.

[Poiuytrewq]

we need to remember that the 5 Boxer Battalions will use between 90 and 100 boxers each….

The modularity helps move things around if required.

Still time to spilt the procurement between tracked and wheeled to allow the CR3, Ajax and tracked Boxers to form a fully tracked force backed up by wheeled Boxers for Recce, Ambulance etc.

Also, RCH 155 perhaps?