The future form of the Army

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military
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Re: The future form of the Army

Post by military »

a) if Russia is as invincible as some would have you believe then why have its regular forces been fixed in the Donbass conflict for so many years and against a supposedly inferior Ukrainian foe?
Russia does not seek to add Donbas to its formal territory (like it did with Crimea) but rather seeks to station soldiers and allied locals there to destabilize Ukrainian territory to make it impossible for Ukraine to join or strongly ally with NATO. NATO is somewhat selfish and won't admit members like Georgia and Ukraine with active territorial disputes with Russia. In the long run, Russia wouldn't mind if Donbas residents voted in Ukrainian elections as long as they voted for candidates under the control of Russia, putting Ukraine back under Russia's sphere of influence (like Belarus is today).

Let me list some perceived advantages of Russian ground forces over NATO ground forces in a straight up fight. This doesn't mean that Russia is starting a major war soon, but this thread is mostly about getting the British Army to a place where it can fight the Russians.

1. The entire Russian ground forces are optimized to fight NATO. This is more or less the only task they train for.

2. Russian has thousands of main battle tanks. MBTs appear in all formations, including mechanized infantry formations. The MBTs are fairly upgraded with high protection levels and guns and ammunition with high penetration levels. The 1980s T-80U was a high end machine then with an estimated 780mm RHA equivalent protection against kinetic energy (using ERA). I have seen figures for the 1990s Challenger 2 of 600mm and similarly for the base model M1A2 (although it has been upgraded three times since). Most Russian tanks have been upgraded within the last ten years and have added more protection. Meanwhile, I am seeing figures like 1000mm RHA or more for how much the most modern Russian APFSDS on in service tanks can penetrate.

3. The British Army has been focused on Afghanistan and Iraq for the last twenty years and has gotten rid of all but two of its main battle tank regiments.

4. Russia has massive amounts of artillery throughout its formations and keeps buying more. Russia has tube artillery, MLRS, and more. This thread has gotten into some modern Russian artillery systems and how they seem to outclass legacy NATO systems. Russia has exotic munitions like thermobaric and cluster munitions that Britain has banned or won't buy. Russia also has large quantities of artillery enablers, like counter battery radar. The British Army might have a few sets of counter battery radar somewhere.

5. Russia has plenty of intermediate range missiles for deep strike.

6. While I doubt they compete with the latest Apaches, Russia has plenty of helicopters.

7. All Russian brigades have large EW units in them. There are also sorts of battlefield EW vehicles that the UK lacks.

8. Ground based air defense for all ranges is about the best in the world in Russia, perhaps excluding ballistic missile defense.

9. Russian light forces are no slouches and will be engaging in disruption in the NATO rear.

10. Russia has automatic minelayers and similar equipment that NATO has divested. Britain banned most mines in 1997.

11. Russian vehicles are more amphibious than NATO ones and Russia has many more bridgelaying systems than NATO does.

12. Every Russian brigade and possibly battalion has a large CBRN unit, something that barely exists in most NATO armies. There should be plenty of CBRN ammunition if the artillery needs it.

13. Russia seems up to speed on drone use.

14. This thread has mentioned heavy equipment transporters. I imagine Russia has tons more HETs than NATO armies do.

In summary, Russia took over the high-end warfighting capabilities of the Soviet Union and has been upgrading them over the twenty years of Putin's rule. NATO has all about saving money for non-defense spending and conveniently emphasizing less expensive counterinsurgency operations.

The main weaknesses of the Russian ground forces are their reliance on conscripts and their general corruption and bureaucracy. But some of those corruption and bureaucracy issues would be put to the side in a shooting war. The conscript quality is better than in the Soviet era as Russia has few Central Asian conscripts for whom Russian is not their native language!

The main threat to the Russian ground forces, after slogging through Poland's ground forces, is the US Air Force. I am not so sure how the USAF would fight such a war.

BlueD954
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Re: The future form of the Army

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11th Signal Brigade has reassigned from 6th Division to 3rd Division.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: The future form of the Army

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As for the future form: unmanned + unmanned
https://www.thedefensepost.com/wp-conte ... 70x610.jpg
- 30 mins loitering time for each 'round'
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: The future form of the Army

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To follow on from @ LJ on the US thread and seeing what the US Army I-BCT's are up to with the MPF light tank should we look to follow on in some form with our Light BCT's and what are the options

1 ) Ajax fitted with the US MPF 105mm system
2 ) Ajax fitted with the OTO 120mm system
3) Ajax fitted with Nemo 120mm mortar
4 ) Boxer fitted with a 105mm system
5 ) Boxer fitted with a 120mm system
6 ) Boxer fitted with Nemo 120mm mortar
7 ) Jaguar 6x6 with a 105mm system

The odd one out is Jaguar and not even sure fitting a 105mm can be done but if it could it is likely we could get 3 for the cost of 1 Ajax or Boxer and at 24 to 28 tons two would be able to be airlifted by by C-17 and one by A400m

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Re: The future form of the Army

Post by SW1 »

That’s certainly stretching the definition of light.

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Tempest414
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Re: The future form of the Army

Post by Tempest414 »

Yes more a mobile gun along the lines of the Type 16 and M1128 which come in at 26 and 19 tons

Lord Jim
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Re: The future form of the Army

Post by Lord Jim »

Why not have a look at the Centauro 2 with its 120mm gun, either the turret to fit to a "mission Module", or the whole vehicle. It would share some of the ammunition with the Challenger 3 but not sure if the ones in service with the Italian army can use the new programmable round.

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Re: The future form of the Army

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For me if we were looking to go down the same road as the US Army I-BCT's for our Light BCT's then what ever we went for would need to come in at sub 35 tons to allow it to be carried in a A400m and for two to be carried in a C-17

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Re: The future form of the Army

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Would 30mm cannon and or anti tank missiles not be sufficient for the light brigade they’re not expected to be going toe to toe with heavy armour in open country.

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Re: The future form of the Army

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I am not sold on the US Army's Light Infantry BCTs. Who are they intended to fight? Certainly not a Peer opponent surely? What is the armour protection on the vehicles shown on the presentation? The best is probably the Light Tank protected against 30mm to the front maybe. The presentation shows the BCT being able to move undetected and pick when and where it will engage the enemy, but shows little of an enemy might be doing at the same time. We argue about how effective medium AFVs will be but this takes it to the next level. I can almost see Russian Artillery Commanders jumping for joy if they have to face these formations.

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Re: The future form of the Army

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SW1 wrote:Would 30mm cannon and or anti tank missiles not be sufficient for the light brigade they’re not expected to be going toe to toe with heavy armour in open country.
Who gets a say in what or where an army has to fight?

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Re: The future form of the Army

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mr.fred wrote:
SW1 wrote:Would 30mm cannon and or anti tank missiles not be sufficient for the light brigade they’re not expected to be going toe to toe with heavy armour in open country.
Who gets a say in what or where an army has to fight?
I’m not following your point

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Re: The future form of the Army

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SW1 wrote:
mr.fred wrote:
SW1 wrote:Would 30mm cannon and or anti tank missiles not be sufficient for the light brigade they’re not expected to be going toe to toe with heavy armour in open country.
Who gets a say in what or where an army has to fight?
I’m not following your point
The enemy gets a say in any engagement, so you cannot be sure that you can dictate what your formation will face or where it will face it.

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Re: The future form of the Army

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mr.fred wrote:
SW1 wrote:
mr.fred wrote:
SW1 wrote:Would 30mm cannon and or anti tank missiles not be sufficient for the light brigade they’re not expected to be going toe to toe with heavy armour in open country.
Who gets a say in what or where an army has to fight?
I’m not following your point
The enemy gets a say in any engagement, so you cannot be sure that you can dictate what your formation will face or where it will face it.
Well of course, but the point being you would withdraw and disengage if a light brigade came across such a force and attempt to fight on your ground not push fwd. Anti tank missiles gives them a limited capability against tanks but if that’s what your expecting or likely to face you send the heavy brigade not the light. I don’t see the point in putting 40 tonne vehicles in a light brigade it defeats there purpose.

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Re: The future form of the Army

Post by mr.fred »

SW1 wrote:Well of course, but the point being you would withdraw and disengage if a light brigade came across such a force and attempt to fight on your ground not push fwd. Anti tank missiles gives them a limited capability against tanks but if that’s what your expecting or likely to face you send the heavy brigade not the light. I don’t see the point in putting 40 tonne vehicles in a light brigade it defeats there purpose.
What heavy brigade?
What if the enemy have managed to put a blocking force in the way of the retreat?

I mean the whole idea of the light, medium, strike or whatever is based on a false assumption anyway

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Re: The future form of the Army

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mr.fred wrote:
SW1 wrote:Well of course, but the point being you would withdraw and disengage if a light brigade came across such a force and attempt to fight on your ground not push fwd. Anti tank missiles gives them a limited capability against tanks but if that’s what your expecting or likely to face you send the heavy brigade not the light. I don’t see the point in putting 40 tonne vehicles in a light brigade it defeats there purpose.
What heavy brigade?
What if the enemy have managed to put a blocking force in the way of the retreat?

I mean the whole idea of the light, medium, strike or whatever is based on a false assumption anyway
Well the army is intending to form two heavy brigades and 3 light or at least that’s what I take from there plans. With the heavy element to fight a Russian armoured force.

They can’t all be scaled to heavily armoured battle. The need to have forces that are logistically light and move rapidly is reasonably to undertake a variety of missions weve seen the army undertaking today and likely in the future.

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Re: The future form of the Army

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For me as said before we should be looking to have

2 x Heavy BCT's with Challenger 3 , Ajax , Boxer ( with boxer based APC, 155mm artillery , 120mm Nemo mortar )
2 x Medium BCT's with something like Griffon / Jaguar ( with Griffon APC , Archer MAN 8x8 , Griffon 120mm mortar )
2 x Light BCT's with JLTV , Foxhound , Jackal ( JLTV towed 105mm , JLTV 120mm mortar and ATGW ) All JVTV and Jackal types should be Air drop capable

This could allow light Units if engaged by heavier units to slow them down with the use of heavy shoot and scoot mortar fire out to 10 km and mobile ATGW's

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Re: The future form of the Army

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I am putting this video here rather than under the USA thread as it covers the US Army's 75th Ranger Regiment in detail. An hour long it starts of showing their training and the kit they use, moving to more realistic exercises ad finally actual combat footage mainly from Afghanistan, some of which is pretty raw. With the British Army now forming its "Ranger" Regiment, I wonder how it will compare, I have no doubt the soldiers will be just as skilled and professional, but will they also have the kit to do the job. The issue of mortars from 120mm down to 60mm, M3 and M4 Carl Gustavs, Lightweight 7.62x51 Machine Guns and so on. At a guess their communications is probably almost equal to SF issue as is their access to cutting edge portable ISTAR systems.

The aviation support seems to be totally integrated, and whilst we have the Chinooks including SF variants and hopefully a decent replacement for the Puma to hopefully match the SF configured Blackhawks used, we have nothing to match the "Little Birds"! These are incredibly useful for inserting small teams into areas other rotor craft would have difficulty doing, and can also provide fire support. Could the Wildcat carry out this role?

They also have access to numerous types of ground vehicle. We have the Foxhound and eventually the MRV(P) phases 1 and 2 but should they also have access to the light vehicles, able to be carried inside a Chinook and carry four to six troops and providing mobility ion the ground and fire support

The role of our planned Ranger Regiment almost mirrors those of the 75th, who also carry out training missions. The high profile they are gong to have, at least initially, means they must be equipped right and not be subject to penny pinching as they will often be out on a limb if things go pear shaped on a training/mentoring mission or supporting SF.

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Re: The future form of the Army

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Lord Jim wrote:The role of our planned Ranger Regiment almost mirrors those of the 75th
Not sure it is other than a common name

From the US army’s web page

“The 75th Ranger Regiment is a lethal, agile and flexible force, capable of executing a myriad of complex, joint special operations missions in support of U.S. policy and objectives. Today’s Ranger Regiment is the Army’s premier raid force. Each of the four geographically dispersed Ranger battalions are always combat ready, mentally and physically tough and prepared to fight the War on Terrorism. Their capabilities include air assault and direct action raids seizing key terrain such as airfields, destroying strategic facilities, and capturing or killing enemies of the Nation. Rangers are capable of conducting squad through regimental size operations using a variety of infiltration techniques including airborne, air assault and ground platforms”

Were as the in the uk army

The thousand-strong Ranger Regiment will be established by August 2021, and will be "open to anybody in the Armed Forces", according to the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Sir Nick Carter.

The new Special Operations Brigade will replace the existing Specialised Infantry Group, and the Army hopes to be able to deploy it by 2022.

It will see soldiers take on roles usually carried out by Special Forces personnel, operating in high-threat environments to train, advise and accompany allies.

The Chief of the General Staff says the brigade will "build on the lessons that we've learnt from Iraq and Afghanistan about just how important it is to build up local and regional capacity".

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Re: The future form of the Army

Post by Tempest414 »

Just from the video above the RM Commando do almost as much i.e striking from the sea and air and the modern Para's would not be that far behind it is the amount of kit on offer

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Re: The future form of the Army

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Lord Jim wrote:The role of our planned Ranger Regiment almost mirrors those of the 75th, who also carry out training missions. The high profile they are gong to have, at least initially, means they must be equipped right and not be subject to penny pinching as they will often be out on a limb if things go pear shaped on a training/mentoring mission or supporting SF.
Agree with what you are saying, at a time of cuts in manning, equipment is key to making this work.

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Re: The future form of the Army

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SW1 wrote:It will see soldiers take on roles usually carried out by Special Forces personnel, operating in high-threat environments to train, advise and accompany allies.
This is the key part of the announcement though it does cause some confusion in its wording. If you read other statements it maybe should have read, "It will see soldiers take on roles carried out by Special Forces including operating in high threat environments as well as training, mentoring and accompanying allies on operations."

Also although the Regiment will be around a thousand personnel this is meant to be the initial manning level and will increase over time. Though it will be created using the four Battalions that currently form the "Specialist Infantry Group" a serious amount of re training to increase the skills and overall capabilities of individuals and the Regiment as a whole.

Moving forward, teams sent to allied counties must be able to go from peacetime training to combat operations at the flick of a switch, and therefore when they deploy they have to take with them the equipment they would need for the latter even if it ends up not being needed. The intent has been pretty well documented, now we will have to see it the goods are delivered to enable the new Regiment to achieve the aspirations made for them.

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Re: The future form of the Army

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Lord Jim wrote:
SW1 wrote:It will see soldiers take on roles usually carried out by Special Forces personnel, operating in high-threat environments to train, advise and accompany allies.
This is the key part of the announcement though it does cause some confusion in its wording. If you read other statements it maybe should have read, "It will see soldiers take on roles carried out by Special Forces including operating in high threat environments as well as training, mentoring and accompanying allies on operations."

Also although the Regiment will be around a thousand personnel this is meant to be the initial manning level and will increase over time. Though it will be created using the four Battalions that currently form the "Specialist Infantry Group" a serious amount of re training to increase the skills and overall capabilities of individuals and the Regiment as a whole.

Moving forward, teams sent to allied counties must be able to go from peacetime training to combat operations at the flick of a switch, and therefore when they deploy they have to take with them the equipment they would need for the latter even if it ends up not being needed. The intent has been pretty well documented, now we will have to see it the goods are delivered to enable the new Regiment to achieve the aspirations made for them.
It’s certainly not the impression the CDS gives in this interview on the subject but if that’s what’s being conveyed to those inside the army fair enough.


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Re: The future form of the Army

Post by topman »

Do we really need another layer of 'special forces'? Is this really a set of tasks that can't be carried out by current units or is it just another sell to politicians?

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Re: The future form of the Army

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All good questions however as said above if we are going to have these Ranger units then they will need to be equipped properly. Also what training will they get what weapons will they employ what vehicles will they get air assets and so on.

I guess a lot will come down to who they are working with and what kit they have

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