NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
- Tempest414
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Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
As said a nice idea and good to see the thinking is going the right way maybe 4 or so of these could take over TAPS freeing up a pair of type 26's and with that range could deploy straight from Faslane
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
First Sea Lord says the RN is getting 30m UUV with 3,000 km range. So little faith. Go stand in the corner with Jim..
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
And the Chief of the Air Staff still states the RAF is to get 130+ F-35s. Until a production contract is signed and the purchase fully funded all the faith in the world means very little. It maybe more accurate to say the RN aspires to putting an number 30m UUVs with a 3000km range into service. Or is he willing to say scrap the Albions to find the necessary funding.
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
Or the T31e programme. Scrapping the Albions (which are amongst the most flexible ships in the fleet) is madness. Complete blue sky, but illustrates a point - what if the Albions were modified to have a permanent hangar for 3-4 ASW Merlins, the deck cranes removed and the well deck adapted to host 4 ASW XUUVs, plus another 4 smaller ASW UUVs. Could be one of the strongest (global) ASW platforms there is.Lord Jim wrote:Or is he willing to say scrap the Albions to find the necessary funding.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
Pulling pessimism out of your ass isn't particularly clever or original.Lord Jim wrote:And the Chief of the Air Staff still states the RAF is to get 130+ F-35s. Until a production contract is signed and the purchase fully funded all the faith in the world means very little. It maybe more accurate to say the RN aspires to putting an number 30m UUVs with a 3000km range into service. Or is he willing to say scrap the Albions to find the necessary funding.
By the way, it's not the Chief of the Air Staff that says 138 F-35's, it's official UK government policy.
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
That escalated quicklyRepulse wrote:Or the T31e programme. Scrapping the Albions (which are amongst the most flexible ships in the fleet) is madness. Complete blue sky, but illustrates a point - what if the Albions were modified to have a permanent hangar for 3-4 ASW Merlins, the deck cranes removed and the well deck adapted to host 4 ASW XUUVs, plus another 4 smaller ASW UUVs. Could be one of the strongest (global) ASW platforms there is.Lord Jim wrote:Or is he willing to say scrap the Albions to find the necessary funding.
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
Yeeeep. 1 m. will buy just about that nice picture we have allready seen.Lord Jim wrote:I wouldn't call it Major news at the moment. Yes a £1m contract has been let but that is barely seed money. For anything to actually be delivered is going to cost substantially more and we already know how many MoD procurement programmes have zero funding even though that are listed as being a priority. Nowadays until a full production contract is let and funded, nothing is anything more than a good idea with possibilities.
30 m long, that's say 1/3 of Astute. So let's say 1/3 of the cost, and the cost is 1,4-1,5 bln. pounds. Ok, unmanned and conventional propulsion, so let's cut 1/3 of that. OTOH, it needs sensors and weapons same like any other sub, so let's add that 1/3 back plus...
A very crude calculus, I agree, but I wanted to show what 1 m will buy.
All that under assumption that the basic idea of unmanned sub works at all, and that's a big assumption, at least IMHO.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
Interesting.Repulse wrote:HMS Albion acting as a USV mothership
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... sts-arctic
One thing that caught my eye was "remotely-piloted air system Puma". It looks like the RN has quietly kept on with it's trials after dropping the ScanEagle. It's even been trialled off a River OPV
https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... 00205-puma
In one of the images, it looks like they may be using it off the aft deck of a BF cutter
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
The picture was taken on a Falmouth based Air support craft on which the first set of sea trials were conducted.Caribbean wrote:In one of the images, it looks like they may be using it off the aft deck of a BF cutter
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
That XLUUV maybe 30 feet, rather than metres...
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/25m- ... evelopment
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/25m- ... evelopment
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
- Tempest414
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Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
do we think a 10 meter unit can conducted a 3000 nautical mile deployment
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
It gets weirder.Tempest414 wrote:do we think a 10 meter unit can conducted a 3000 nautical mile deployment
They've added this to their site in the last couple of days:
https://msubs.com/unmanned-submersibles/xluuv/
Named the XLUUV/Manta/201 it measures 8.9m and it claims a top speed of 12kts submerged. In one photo there is a cargo bay and the below shows seating for four passengers:
Either something's confused (they also show their 25m Moray) or this XLUUV is modular and quite impressive for the size. The manned 201 looks like the ultimate boy's toy:
Would the boat davits on the Type 26/31 be capable of lifting nine tonnes of mini sub?
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" - Dr. Strangelove (1964)
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
The T26 Mission Bay Handling System is supposedly able to handle up to 15 tonnes.
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-ty ... velopment/
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/the-ty ... velopment/
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
- Tempest414
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Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
As a side note both the River B1 and B2 have the space and cranes that can lift 16 tons plus so if we take the base line there of 10 meters long 8.9 tons and 48 hours submerged means a B2 river can carry 2 one on each waist point and a B1 River could carry 1 on its working deck and as said before the space under the working deck on a B1 ( which at this time is a gym) could be a ops room
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
More details on the UUV contract in Janes. Confirms that it's the 9m S201 (or a variant thereof) that will be leased, initially for 12 months, for trials, with a possible two-year extension. Presumably they will be trying to squeeze as much range , speed and endurance out of it as they can.
https://www.janes.com/article/94753/uk- ... -for-msubs
https://www.janes.com/article/94753/uk- ... -for-msubs
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
Good point and having a number of assets capable of operating these types of kit is a game changer.Tempest414 wrote:As a side note both the River B1 and B2 have the space and cranes that can lift 16 tons plus so if we take the base line there of 10 meters long 8.9 tons and 48 hours submerged means a B2 river can carry 2 one on each waist point and a B1 River could carry 1 on its working deck and as said before the space under the working deck on a B1 ( which at this time is a gym) could be a ops room
It is clear that having a range of armed and reconnaissance UAVs/USVs/UUVs is fast becoming as if not more important than traditional numbers of warships (or platforms to operate from). The Platform (in addition to supporting assets) dictate the threat level / period that can be operated in.
Is it just me or is it just a shame the RN missed the opportunity to implement the MHPC concept. A unified AAW & ASW platform (perhaps an evolved T26) and Venator style MHPC sloop (rather than the current T31 and replacing the OPVs, MCMs and Echos) combination would have given affordable scale across threat levels.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
Who would of thunk it......Repulse wrote:It is clear that having a range of armed and reconnaissance UAVs/USVs/UUVs is fast becoming as if not more important than traditional numbers of warships (or platforms to operate from). The Platform (in addition to supporting assets) dictate the threat level / period that can be operated in.
- ArmChairCivvy
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Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
What have we lost?
Do this (aft), http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/s ... avy_10.jpg
stick the T26 mission bay in the middle, and you still have loads of aviation* and locations for defensive weapons
~~~~~~~~
* or use also that deck (with a deck crane)
Do this (aft), http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/s ... avy_10.jpg
stick the T26 mission bay in the middle, and you still have loads of aviation* and locations for defensive weapons
~~~~~~~~
* or use also that deck (with a deck crane)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
It’s platforms like this and other unmanned systems that make me think Absalon would of been a better choice for T31 than IH
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
Probably £100mn per unit cost, before adding a T26 mission bay. Don’t get me wrong, the T31 could become a high end MHPC, but currently with its traditional boat bays and focus on “being a Frigate” it’s not the direction of discussion nor is it the most suitable design.ArmChairCivvy wrote:What have we lost?
Do this (aft), http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/s ... avy_10.jpg
stick the T26 mission bay in the middle, and you still have loads of aviation* and locations for defensive weapons
~~~~~~~~
* or use also that deck (with a deck crane)
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
True, but it needs to be at the front of mind when choosing platform designs - feels like we forgot it when choosing the T31 design and discussing the option to remove LPDs.SW1 wrote:Who would of thunk it......
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
Repulse wrote:Probably £100mn per unit cost, before adding a T26 mission bay. Don’t get me wrong, the T31 could become a high end MHPC, but currently with its traditional boat bays and focus on “being a Frigate” it’s not the direction of discussion nor is it the most suitable design.ArmChairCivvy wrote:What have we lost?
Do this (aft), http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/s ... avy_10.jpg
stick the T26 mission bay in the middle, and you still have loads of aviation* and locations for defensive weapons
~~~~~~~~
* or use also that deck (with a deck crane)
This is why Absalon would of been a better choice they could still of claimed them as “frigates” while being much for flexible foe unmanned systems.Repulse wrote:True, but it needs to be at the front of mind when choosing platform designs - feels like we forgot it when choosing the T31 design and discussing the option to remove LPDs.SW1 wrote:Who would of thunk it......
Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
Well we had a long long discuss quite a while ago about how how you could re role the bays and Albions to a fwd deployed presence vessel using them as motherships to patrol craft, helicopters and unmanned systems. The bays have to an extent been doing this in the Caribbean and gulf as has fort Victoria in the India ocean. The bmt Ellda concept made sense in this context. Now we see an experiment with Albion.
Would of course mean reducing traditional frigate numbers, marine numbers, mcm vessels to invest in the payload systems because in a finite budget choices have to be made, there was as per usual outrage because we only talk about change provided nothing changes.
Would of course mean reducing traditional frigate numbers, marine numbers, mcm vessels to invest in the payload systems because in a finite budget choices have to be made, there was as per usual outrage because we only talk about change provided nothing changes.
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Re: NavyX - the Royal Navy’s new Autonomy and Lethality Accelerator
Quite reasonable judging from 1M GBP budget.Caribbean wrote:More details on the UUV contract in Janes. Confirms that it's the 9m S201 (or a variant thereof) that will be leased, initially for 12 months, for trials, with a possible two-year extension. Presumably they will be trying to squeeze as much range , speed and endurance out of it as they can.
https://www.janes.com/article/94753/uk- ... -for-msubs
Interesting is, RN is aiming at 30m-long 3000nm range version, rather than the small one. It is intended to deploy in singleton, not using surface vessels. Reasonable if with 3000nm range. It can be used as TAPS of combined with P-8A. It can be used like cold-war SURTASS ships or SOSUS sonar system.
This kind of UUV is much more reasonable to be used in RN than any kind of SSK. Imagine 6 such systems in rotation, 2 always on-station. One used as active pinger (with passive detection, as well), and the other used as passive sneaker. Or both as active pingers with one SSN sneaking there with passive mode.
Anyway, test and try using small asset is very critical. So this step is very reasonable.